Haha. I guess that's true Queef. But let us remember that the joy of holding hell over someone's head is always a projected state, in which those that do the holding are actually holding it over their own heads, unconsciously.

It's the liberation from that sort of detachment from self that requires all sorts of unGodly methods to punish one's self that is the real awakening.

(And, I understand the psychology, I think. Although its in a different area, this anon has been going through a whole heap of major internal transitions of awakening to how I was holding down a lot of unresolved pain, which was connected to certain beliefs about who I was in relation to others in my family. Those beliefs have shown themselves to be the once protective but not severely limiting creations they are.)

Either way, I certain try to feel the spots where I can productively share a little of my thought and experiences.

One of the most powerful "koen"s of faith that I either stumbled upon or the Holy Spirit put into my heart is encapsulated in the following:

Satan works to turn our strengths against us, to undermine and use our strengths against us. But the Father works and uses our weaknesses to make us greater, and better, before him.

The way I understand this is for example, a person who is naturally artistic and sensitive to beauty, for example, the devil will attempt to undermine that sensitivity by tempting such a person into base depravity, debauchery, etc. On the other hand, The Lord will take a person who is weak without confidence, courage, and very timid, and by putting them through trials, make that person the most courageous and strong-willed person internally. By leading him or her through trials that weakness naturally encounters.

"My point, however, is that evil men can be used by God for His purposes."

Hmmmm. I don't really know that I agree with that. I would express things in a different way: God takes evil and turns it into good.

For example, I firmly believe that it was not God's will that Christ be crucified on the cross. At Least that was NOT the Father's original purpose to send Jesus. (there are, we can see, dual prophecies regarding what would happen when Christ arrived - man of suffering? or man of glory? Rejected, or recieved?

And note, Christ himself is recorded as having stated for the record: "All the prophets prophesied until John" (emphasis added). Which means, as I understand it, the dual prophecy is NOT one for the first coming and one for the second (Revelations and Gospel also display a similar dual prophecy trend).

The reason there is a dual prophecy is because it hinges not on God and not on Christ, but on man (specifically, at Jesus' time, it hinged on Israel) whether they would honor God's son and raise him as their offering to the Father in unity, or reject him, creating a situation where the Cross became necessary.

"And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams." 1 Sam 15:22

I understand that this view crosses against a lot of traditional theology, but I believe that much of that theology was formed on a misunderstanding of the nature of the human role in God's work of salvation (namely, our responsibility to either accept God's word, whether in symbolic form (offerings, the Law), or in flesh (Christ), or to not accept. The same responsibility that Adam and Eve failed, each human must also face and then decide.

Notice that Christ ONLY began to talk about the Cross after about 2/3s the way through his ministry. Prior to that, he talked only about the Kingdom being at hand, teaching his disciples to pray, "on Earth as in Heaven".

Note also that Jesus could ALREADY forgive sins, before the cross. Forgiveness of sins comes not because of the cross, but because of Christ, the word in the flesh.

If God's purpose was for Jesus to be an offering on the cross from the first, it makes no sense to prepare Israel for 2000 years to receive and honor him.

But just as the Israelites fell into faithlessness many times, for example, on the course from Egypt, there was always a chance that even when God sent his holy and perfect son, that they would again fall into faithlessness. It's THEIR responsibility to respond to the Word (in flesh), or not.

Because God had prepared Jesus and his lineage for 2000 years, Satan thought he could destroy God's purpose by destroying Jesus body. Thus, Satan worked as hard as he could to undermine the people and turn them against Jesus, using the wickedness in their own hearts. Jesus, oppositely, did everything he could to cause them to repent of that wickedness, so that they would come to him.

This is why he wept when he stood over a Jerusalem that rejected him. It broke his heart. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!"

So turning the people and especially the jewish leaders against Jesus was the devils work and objective, to murder jesus. That was indeed evil. However, when it became clear that Israel passed the point of no return, and failed to believe, then the Father and the Son in unity determined to pay the highest price: to sacrifice Jesus flesh on the cross. God, because of the Son's unity and love for him, was able to turn evil into good, to bring good out of the worst evil.

If Jesus had been received, then the kingdom would have come on earth and in heaven at that time, and the glorious prophecies of Isaiah, for example, would have been fulfilled. But when Israel rejected Jesus, it was in fact all of humanity rejecting Jesus, because Israel was the representative of ALL fallen humanity.

Because they rejected Christ, as a whole, then all humanity should have been lost to Satan forever. But God and Jesus determined that instead, they would sacrifice Jesus body, through the crucifixion, and thereby accomplish spiritual salvation, with the physical salvation to be delayed, unavoidably, until the second coming.

When you re-read scripture from this viewpoint, many many things that were previously unseen will appear. One of those is the change in emphasis by Jesus, from the Kingdom is here, now, repent, to the Cross is coming. How the turning point came at the Mount of Transfiguration, when Christ consulted with Moses and Elijah in the spirit. How Jesus rebuked Peter when peter then spoke against the cross, because the Will had been modified in a way that the cross became necessary. How Christ worked so hard to be received by the people, and warned them to repent to receive him. How there are in fact dual prophecies in scripture, because which way the Will unfolds depends in the moment on the human fulfillment of OUR responsibility (to either unite or not unite with the word). Not unite > faithlessness > disaster, prolongation, difficult suffering course. Unite > faithfulness > fulfillment, glory, fulfilled Will.

The Will never changes - it is absolute, but the role individuals or families or nations play, this depends on us. When Israel failed, the result was disaster, suffering, and the blessing moved to Christianity (parable of the vineyard). When Abraham failed in his first offering, he then had to make a second harder offering, and the mission to establish a family in unity with the Word moved through Isaac to Jacob, who fulfilled. Etc.

I'm not attempting here to say that other's views of scripture aren't valid. I firmly believe that ultimately, God guides each one of us through our unity with him in heart, and that our belief will always be limited and imperfect, because the real purpose is not the belief, but the relationship it allows us to build with God and Christ. Belief is the doorway, but the relationship with Christ is the mansion that the doorway leads to.

This is why there has been so much variance in how (what exactly) Christians believe, but still God has been able to build the relationship. A pious person with a sincere heart can build his or her relationship with Christ, obviously, despite limited or even mistaken beliefs. It's not about what we believe, as much as it is about what relationship we build with Him through the belief we have at any given moment.

The relationship saves, the belief is the doorway to the relationship.

Anyway, I'm just sharing my understanding, because obviously, you have faith in God and see God's work in the world, and practice that faith.

Long story short, I don't think God uses evil people, because if God is using them, they are not evil. An "evil person" is one whom the devil uses and works through. However, God can and does use the outcomes of evil to turn them into something good, and works from there.

A blessing on you my fellow pede. Thanks if you read this far.

Civil Discussion ONLY: They want you divided. They want you labeled by race, religion, class, sex, etc. Divided you are weak [no collective power]. Divided you attack each other and miss the true target [them].