Yesterday I got into a bit of an argument with some friends over the death penalty. We are all faithful Christians, but I am strongly in favor of the death penalty where they are not. They argued that it's not "merciful" and "you're taking away their right to life and ability to repent."
I argued back saying, "They gave up their right to life when they murdered/raped/kidnapped/etc. Did the criminal show mercy to their victim? The criminal took away the victim's right to life. Criminals on death row spend decades awaiting their sentence, there is more than enough time to repent, and if they refuse to repent on their deathbed then that's their decision. We can't 'force' them to believe when they don't want to. That's their free will choice. Justice must be served, not only in the next life but in this one as well. Justice must be served for the victims and their families. Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent."
They argued that because there have been instances where innocent people are falsely accused and put on death row, that therefore nobody should be put on death row. If we should go by that standard then we should abolish the justice and prison system entirely, because innocent people are put behind bars all the time (Jan. 6th prisoners), far more than they are put on death row. They also said putting someone to death is "too expensive." But giving them free meals and housing in prison for the rest of their lives isn't? And all on our dime?
Even the Bible has stated that it IS lawful for executions to be done against criminals: "For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." Romans 13:4.
But I'm wondering what you all think of this? Was I right to advocate for capital punishment when it is appropriate for heinous crimes? In regards to the "elite" who have committed such acts of atrocity against humanity I believe it is well within humanity's right to enact justice on them, to the fullest extent of the law, and that includes capital punishment. Or should we be "the bigger man" and grant them mercy where they wouldn't for us?
TL;DR
Got in an argument with friends about the death penalty. I said it should definitely be allowed when appropriate for heinous crimes. They said it's not "merciful." Should it be allowed or not?
Guilty beyond doubt, yes, they repent great but the body dies, mercy is for the victim(s)!
Death penalty is a deterrent. That is its main purpose.
Pedos, rapists, and kid murderers should be handled by the prison population.
I definitely agree on that if they aren't put on death row, however I don't see why they get to live while their victims do not.
Perhaps you aren't aware of what usually happens to "pedos, rapists, and kid murderers" once they are incarcerated......
I have a friend that's a nurse in a prison and she says all of them are gay and pedophiles once they get in the door these days.
I know that, but they're still "alive." And they still get to eat every day, and sleep in a bed, while their victims sleep 6 feet under.
the idea we can subsidize a criminal’s existence for their entire life is a luxury that modern life has given us. Imagine a post apocalyptic existence where resources are scarce and this becomes a non-issue.
waiting 20 years to execute a criminal is not good. We are executing a completely different person at that point.
I like animals. Especially mammals. I think foxes are cool creatures. But, if it’s your job to protect the chicken coop and you let a fox go, he’s probably going to come back and kill all your chickens. Who’s fault is that?
God approved of death penalty.. In the Bible even His only son died on the Cross.
And when Jesus was born, all the male babies 2 and under were killed by King Herod. God knew that and I think it was prophesized by Isaiah? And God let it happen. So YES, death penalty.
Our souls are eternal, the body is temporary. Only God knows the plan He has for us.
What I have a problem is the drama and how much money and trouble they take to execute someone. I hate this modern world. All you gotta do is give them a rope. Why is that so hard? Why must we spend so much money on execution when a bullet doesn't cost much?
Also, Jesus said if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off. Maybe with death penalty, we're actually doing pedos a favor so they don't continue to sin so much to a point of no return. And if you forgive them and when they're released, more children are victimized, are you really doing the right thing? How would that be on your own conscience?
I'm only talking about Pedos and serial killers, psychopaths, Hillary, cannibals, traitors who sell out nation, Fauci and Gates types of evil who wants to murder the entire earth.. they do deserve death penalty.
Exactly. I looked up why it costs so much to just end a prisoners life, and the reason isn't the execution itself, it's the ridiculous legal fees and costs that they inevitably rack up trying to get the sentence overturned, even if they are fully guilty. My thoughts are shorten their time on death row from decades to only years or less, so that there is less time for them to waste taxpayer money.
I know there have been innocent people on death row, but with the emergence of DNA testing it's happening less and less now.
Yeah, exactly. The lawyers and the justice system totally milk the cow and drag it out for years. It's ridiculous.
P.S Well written post. Very articulate and on point.
Thank you! Much appreciated!
God approved of the death penalty. He even wanted the early Israelites to kill the tribes (men women and children) occupying their land.
As for those on death row (unlike many unbelievers) have the chance to repent before they are put to death. Their death date is well known to them in advance.
This was exactly my point to my friends. God approved of righteous killing when necessary or appropriate. After all, God sanctioned many wars for good reasons. If killing were absolutely always evil no matter what, then you would be sent to hell if you defended your own life, or the lives of others, against attackers, which is NOT what the faith says.
The sin of those tribes was already at its peak by the time Joshua and the Israelites arrived. Often, an exchange was offered (Rahab sheltering spies for example) for protection and incorporation to the Israelite society. The Gibeonites received a similar deal from Joshua.
I believe the theory that the Old Testament was written about false gods, the Annunaki, who believe in blood sacrifice. A true loving God would never demand blood sacrifice.
Is that Gnosticism?
It's more like the Ancient Aliens theory but it does correlate to gnosticism views also.
Not joking, isn't ancient aliens theory just modern day gnosticism anyway?
Pretty much sounds like the same thing, doesn't it? Regarding the death penalty, in spite of horrific crimes, taking the perp's life via execution doesn't bring back the victim. It just hurts more people, because even Ted Bundy had a mother. I'm sure it was hard for her to see him get fried like he did. She wasn't responsible for his craziness. But I don't think these perpetrators' prison life should be comfortable either.
Without it, society degenerates as the criminals kill and steal more under a soft justice system
With it, society will accidentally execute innocent people
So either way, people are going to die. But criminals are scared of the death penalty and will behave better under it.
All that is nice, but most importantly the death penalty is supported by scripture (that is, The Bible)
We used to have the death penalty in Canada, most people dont know that. It was abolished in 1962 and I wish they would bring it back.
They did. It's called euthanasia.
From what I've seen of Canada you guys really need it. Now they've gotten rid of the death penalty for criminals but have legalized it for innocent sick people who just want medical care. "Oh you have diabetes? Have you considered killing yourself?"
Part of today’s problem is we’ve come to view absolutely everything in terms of an ever expanding definition of what a ‘Rights and Liberty’ are. Ironically the people quoted most often in defense of the ever expanding definition of what “Rights and Liberty” is. IE the Founding Fathers and various enlightenment philosophers. Are often enough the same people who’d happily hang someone over stealing a Horse. Which for that era is essentially the same thing as stealing a car.
We have ultimately grown Suicidally Empathetic as a society to the point where we value the lives, property, and rights of criminals. Over the lives, property, and rights of the innocent. Ultimately whether they repent or not is something we shouldn’t give a fuck about. That’s Gods problem. Not ours.
Our problem and primary concern is ultimately the preservation of our society and Nation in the face of a multitude of threats. Both internal and external.
It’s only expensive because activists insisted on chemical cocktails. And got the Courts to rule everything else as ‘inhumane’. Not to mention they’re allowed to dozens of appeals and legal tricks to draw out the process.
God has told us that everyone that has not accepted His Son Jesus will be sentenced to an eternal death in hell.
Throughout the Old Testament many people were slaughtered in the various battles (both the Israelites and their enemies). The common denominator was that it was always those that didn't obey and follow God.
Also, God has said what He thinks about those that abuse children:
In the New Testament (1 Peter 2:13-17), the Lord also tells us to:
Therefore, as a devout Christian, while I will not be killing anyone myself, I am supportive of a government that uses the death penalty.
Finally, for those that have not accepted Jesus Christ personally, I would urge you to do so before it is too late. God bless you.
I consider myself Christian and Pro-Life. As such, I can't condone the death penalty, but I would condone a hard labor prison life for such people. I believe the "Thou shall not kill" commandment is one of the big ones. If you lock the person up for life and make them work, or at least give them no joy such as TV and commissary, a lifetime to think about why they are there may be more effective than killing them. Maybe they can pay their karma better by suffering in endless boredom for the rest of their lives whereas the death penalty gets them out of this matrix.
Unpleasant but necessary. On the expense issue, they're so wrong they shouldn't have raised it. (Morality should not be contingent on cost regardless.)
That said, making it contingent on a righteous justice system is sensible, and justifiable. (See https://greatawakening.win/p/19BtGXaCmu/chinas-death-vans-are-the-most-m/ for an example.)
Those who are given the responsibility of judges should use discernment, and pray often. There's a reason that there's a separate jury deliberation for the penalty phase, in cases eligible for the death penalty. And we should all pray that their judgement is righteous. But within those constructs, the death penalty is legitimate, not only as punishment but also deterrent. Your argument based on Romans 13 is solid.
in the event of a heinous crime not only is it appropriate but it is also a deterrent to keep people from doing it in the first place.....maybe someone would think twice before committing the crime in the first place....if not explain it to your maker when you stand before him........there is also a need to clean up the justice system to make sure an innocent doesnt get this sentence.....
Exactly my point, if it were implemented more thoroughly and effectively it would be a great crime deterrent. If the immediate punishment for a murderer was that he would face a firing squad he may actually think twice about murdering. It just reminds me of all the scumbag guys who have killed their wives to be with their mistresses instead of doing the normal thing and divorcing them.
The current state of it, with 20 to 30 years of appeals, is ridiculous. I would rather have it eliminated than continue with the MILLIONS it cost for their continuing appeals.
Exactly my thoughts.
I am probably the only one who holds out for the altitude chamber. Just put them in the chamber. Hook them up to monitoring equipment. Bind them. Exit. And then draw the pressure down very slowly. It will reach a point where they lose consciousness. And then further until they die of anoxia. Simple. Clean. Self-anesthetizing. Certain. Inexpensive. What's not to like?
I love "debating" this issue when I can. I'm a Christian, but you don't need to be one to see the necessity for the death penalty in a just society. Here's the usual objections to the death penalty, including some of your friends', and my replies:
The death penalty isn't merciful.
Not an argument.
You're taking away their right to life.
Yes. This is the purpose of the death penalty. Tell your friends: The purpose of the death penalty is to remove people from a civilized society who have shown themselves unable to live in that society.
You're taking away their ability to repent.
Wrong. They can repent up to the moment they're hanged.
The death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent to crime.
"Deterrence" isn't the purpose of the death penalty. Let's say "detergent" is the purpose of the death penalty. See above: The purpose of the death penalty is to remove people from a civilized society who have shown themselves unable to live in that society.
It costs more money to put someone to death than to let them live their life out in prison.
Wrong. As someone else has already noted, quick trials and executions save taxpayer money and space in prisons.
B-but innocent people have been falsely accused and executed!
No justice system is perfect; just look at all the false rape accusations and the hundreds (thousands?) of men who've had their lives ruined by women and an obliging MSM. Let's leave the death penalty for instances in which the evidence is incontrovertible.
You don't need to quote the Bible for any of the arguments above.
An extra point in your favor: the death sentence sure as hell is a deterrent to the one executed. No recidivism. No repeat offenses. One less predator to deal with.
Being face to face with death has an interesting way of either making people repent before dying or continuing their mocking of God. Our examples given are the thieves on the crosses. One repented and is now in heaven. The other continued in his defiance and mockery. It’s safe to say he’s in hell now. The death penalty is just.
The two thieves on the cross are such a good example. Even when faced with death we can't "force" people to believe. Either they do or they don't. It's their free will choice and we can't interfere. Even the good thief admitted that his sentence and punishment was just and accepted it, and He was forgiven and admitted into heaven.
I don't know why my friends are so ready to give mercy to unrepentant criminals and yet not to their victims. They care more about monsters than innocents.
That’s the design of the one that rules this world. However temporary that is. It’s been twisted for us to show more compassion for the perpetrator than for the victims. Disgusting but that’s the truth.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Did Jesus show mercy to the tax collectors in the temple? Murderers, rapists and pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. They have no use to society. They are instead a danger to the innocent. As such, death is the only solution. Keeping them in jail on the tax payer's dime is a double whammy to those who are law abiding citizens. If a dog mauls a kid or a person it is put down. The same analogy is befitting to those in the categories I mentioned.
HRC deserves the death penalty for he actions as Secretary of State. All the others can die while serving life time sentences in a maximum security hard labor prison. If they are 80 years old then I expect them to be out on the yard breaking rocks for ten hours a day, six and a half days a week. The half day can be spent reading the bible or listening to a preacher. Three hots and a cot plus hard labor for the rest of your days!
Some people just need killin
...an execution is not a "penalty"...
...it is a "solution"...
Very good answer!
"Very good answer!"
...doggy winks...
I agree with you and your argument and points were valid.
This subject returns me to my insight that we misuse the word "human." We speak of "human beings" as though that meant an anthropoid creature with rational intellect. But that is a misapplication. it really refers to a certain kind of social pattern: mutual aid, cooperation, peaceful interactions. That is a "human society." Those who are part of that kind of society are "human beings." As opposed to what? Those who are not are "predators," and they do not live in a society; they live among prey, for pillage, rape, or murder as they please.
A human society cannot tolerate predators in human guise. So, the death penalty is needed. Not merely as a deterrent by providing a warning of the potential penalty of severe predation. But essentially as a means of eliminating the continuing threat of the predator against anyone and everyone. There was the famous case of the Tsavo Lions in Kenya, where a pair of wild lions had made a practice of attacking and eating the workers on a railroad bridge project. The engineer in charge led the effort to hunt them down and kill them. They did not have time, energy, or leisure for any other outcome.
"Oh, that's lions," one might say. Think again. My wife related to me the occasion when a gang of brigands from the DR Congo crossed the border into their adjacent region in Zambia, to pillage, rape, and murder. When her father got home and learned of events, he took up his AK-47 and with others headed into the bush to hunt the gang members. They brought the bodies back. It was over. If you love your family and your community you cannot do less. We knew this was so back in the days of the "Wild West," when people had to form up posses to track down and eliminate violators of the peace. There was no keeping them.
We should not have the luxury of keeping "human" predators in a zoo (prison) to be fed and cared for. We misunderstand what we are here to do on Earth. It is not for us to puff ourselves up and assume the power to dispense mercy for outrageous violations of life and peace, as though by being "merciful" to the most intolerable crimes we virtue signal our moral perfection. It only evidences moral turpitude, gratifying pride by indulging horrid evil.
So, the death penalty is not optional. It is a necessity.
If someone is a danger to society, they cannot be released into society.
Keeping them caged for life is cruel, expensive, and dangerous to staff.
Only one reasonable thing to do...
We need the death penalty and it needs to be expanded to all Democrats, socialists, and communists that love the crime.
If we had swift and equal justice for the other laws and DAs who consistently prosecute, then we would have more fear of those in authority and more respect for the law. My position is that doing that can minimize the death penalty discussion to a small number of cases. What’s the right solution for the death penalty? A society where it’s rarely needed. The death penalty money arguments fade when swift justice deters crime and reduces prison populations. It’s not an overnight solution. It’s a long term strategy.
Jesus said it best. We don’t know His sheep. There are followers of Christ that can make that decision if a person requires a death penalty or not. If a person is conflicted, no matter the situation, then they are not suited for this job. And it’s stated in the Bible, once you’re in the Fathers hand, you cannot be removed. So the “executioner” can be forgiven, esp if they are a child of God. Doesn’t mean he couldn’t try and get the soon to be executed saved before hand. There is God’s justice and the worlds justice. Sins and greater sins. Just because you get saved and forgiven, doesn’t mean you escape the worlds justice. And a person in this position should understand this. If they truely believe God’s word. For the rest of those who cannot be apart of something like the death penalty, don’t need to be. And shouldn’t be. They don’t have to like it. But it’s what happens. I used to be different. I was the one who wanted to make them suffer. Spend weeks killing them for what they’ve done. But today, I feel different. I completely understand why the death penalty exists. Some people cannot live along side the rest of us. But can I pull the trigger nowadays? I don’t know. I want to say yes. But I don’t want to. But, I know in my position, Jesus will help me. He’ll send along a fellow sheep who can. And he’ll make his peace afterwards. And he’ll understand my position. And together we’ll continue to walk with Christ. Brothers.
You are correct
Your argument is the more persuasive one.
Why should the little girl who's repeatedly raped and then killed be the only one to suffer the death penalty? Screw that. We innately expect, need and deserve justice.
God wouldn't have given us a sense of justice if we weren't meant to use it to protect the species from its evil elements.
I'm using this in future debates, thank you!
cheers anon
I've been lurking here for years, and this post got me to sign up and join in; this is really my favorite go-to for brilliant MAGA deep dives. Thank you GAW. Love you all. So, I am sick of all the lax criminal justice policies (local, state & federal) that are allowing so much injury and deaths upon our great citizens. YES I BELIEVE IN THE DEATH PENALTY, even at the risk of an innocent being wrongly put to death. Please consider how many suspects are investigated, at multiple levels of law enforcement and judicial processes, BEFORE a trial (bench or jury) occurs. I want quick death penalties to be enforced even over deportations! Heinous crimes of murder deserve death. Especially with all the illegal 3rd world individuals in our communities over the recent past years. As a STARK example of someone needing a quick trial and death: a man was caught in the act of physical assault and RAPE of a homeless woman in the dark middle of night where she sought refuge on the steps of a CHURCH in Nashville, TN. Fireman driving past caught this heinous actions and stopped it. However the woman was dying as this man was RAPING her. She died as "Mohamed Mohamed" was taken into custody by these first responders. Woman's identity unknown. Man's identity not specified and he is not cooperating. Liberal city of Nashville hushes these types of crimes, as do our liberal mocking bird media. How much insanity is too much before realizations and common sense kick in?
Awesome, thank you for joining and signing up!
Love what you said, it's just as I feel as well. The criminal system is too soft, not too hard, on criminals. I believe my friends have good intentions when they say they want to administer mercy, and that God forgives all sins and crimes if the person is truly repentant, however I think they don't truly see the real evil that goes on in the world and that clouds their thinking. They think that "nobody could be so bad that they deserve death." And I said, "You really don't understand how evil and depraved the worst of humanity is, and there is no rehabilitation for them." These are the types of Christians that want to believe that nobody is in hell, when we know for a fact this is not true. People go to hell every day, and it's their choice, they don't want to repent. My friends can't fathom the idea that God wouldn't save them, except He has, many times, but these evil people spit back in the face of God each time. There are some people who don't want to be saved, and that's their free will choice.
I don't think it's needed.
Put them in the smallest room possible. Could you image living in the smallest room possible for the rest of your life?
That's simple torture. It will drive a person to commit suicide. If that is your objective, it is perverse. But it is also against the law (cruel and unusual punishment).
God said Thou shall not kill.
The meaning was not to murder. He certainly instructed the Israelites to kill all the Canaanites, man, woman, and child, and was displeased with them that they failed to do so. He had no trouble with David killing as required to defeat Goliath and later win the war with King Saul, but reproached him for conniving murder by sending Bathsheba's husband to certain death. You really need to read the whole Bible to understand it all.
The point of penalities. Is to deter people from committing crimes.
An instant death tells the thug. So what.. i'll leave this world quick. They don't have to live their their actions.
They are also punishments for crimes of extremity, such as rape and murder. I argue that they are needed to protect society from predators, in which case it doesn't matter what the offender thinks. It only matters that they are gone and can harm no more.
Locking them up should = no more harm caused.
Unless and until they get out. Would you save a man-eating lion from being shot? Or not put down a rabid dog? How can you feel compassion for a man who has no compassion? Why would you want to keep and tend a collection of murderers, rapists, and child molesters? For what noble purpose? Mercy? Their elimination would be mercy for the surviving victims.
I don't think of the death penalty as an occasion for education, revenge, remorse, repentance, or stupid virtue signaling I think of it as excising a cancer, strictly clinically, with no hope or satisfaction attached to it.
In our justice system, they will have some time to live with the consequences of their actions. But there are two reasons for punishment. To PUNISH the offender and to deter others. Death has a way of deterring others.
No, God said thou shalt not murder. YUGE difference.
Where does it say murder?
I have always read Thiu Shall Not Kill
Probably because you have read one of the many versions that do not translate the word faithfully. Just as we dive deeper here and don't take anyone's word for something without doing our own research, you should do that with the bible as well. The Old Testament was written in ancient Hebrew. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek and a little Aramaic. Sometimes translators got it wrong and sometimes they might even have gotten in wrong on purpose. Sound familiar.
Besides all that, just think logically. Do you think God was saying that you don't have the right to defend yourself from someone trying to kill YOU? You're just supposed to let them shoot you or stab you to death or whatever and smile and wave goodbye to your wife and kids while they watch? And what about meat? Do you eat meat? "Thou shall not kill," could easily be used to make the argument you shouldn't kill ANYTHING. Of course it is murder. Even without looking into the original language, common sense will tell you that.
Defend yourself in the moment is normal survival instincts that God automatically programmed into us.
I do not need the Bible to tell me that self delense is ok. Because it’s already embedded in us naturally.
We are talking about post crime.
The act of after a crime was committed. The death penalty does not reverse time. It does not undo the damage that has been already done.
You're surmising again. Putting words into the bible that aren't there. And so what that it doesn't reverse damage? That's not the point.
I'm cool with the death penalty, when it's 100% that they're guilty. There has to be a non-coerced confession, hard evidence (DNA, video, etc), whatever that proves without a doubt that their conviction is just.
If there is even a micro-possibility that they maybe could be innocent, then life without the chance for parole.
The system is not perfect, as it all relies on humans, so yes, there needs to be safe-guards in place. But an eye for an eye should be expected.
I'll even go further and say that when they're found 100% guilty and sentenced to death, they should be killed in the manner that they killed. If they set someone on fire, they get set on fire. If they raped and stabbed someone, they get raped and stabbed. ...and so on. No more of this humane, painless, lethal injection. Make it horrible, and let the world see. Just think how much crime that would deter.
Very true, but even more innocent people are murdered on the streets every year, and yet these criminals get free meals and housing all on our money.
Sure, but lowering punishments for extreme criminals has only made things worse. Look to DC and NY for proof, though DC is finally getting cleaned up because criminals are actually getting punished enough.