Admittedly I don't always do this, but I wish I would, for, like Ben Franklin, I have seen how my opinions are received based on how I choose to deliver them, and when I have taken this advice, I'm much more persuasive, and make much fewer enemies.
What was this advice?
Turns out Ben Franklin was a bit of an asshole when he disagreed with others. Said one friend of his:
"Ben, you are impossible. Your opinions have a slap in them for everyone who differs with you. They have become so offensive that nobody cares for them. Your friends find they enjoy themselves better when you are not around. You know so much that no man can tell you anything. Indeed, no man is going to try, for the effort would lead only to discomfort and hard work. So you are not likely ever to know any more than you do now, which is very little."
Ben said that after pondering the validity of this stern rebuke, and finding merit in it, he committed to a new way of approaching disagreement:
“I made it a rule to forbear all direct contradiction to the sentiment of others, and all positive assertion of my own. I even forbade myself the use of every word or expression in the language that imported a fixed opinion, such as ‘certainly,’ ‘undoubtedly,’ etc., and I adopted, instead of them, ‘I conceive,’ ‘I apprehend,’ or ‘I imagine’ a thing to be so or so, or ‘it so appears to me at present.’ When another asserted something that I thought an error, I denied myself the pleasure of contradicting him abruptly, and of showing immediately some absurdity in his proposition: and in answering I began by observing that in certain cases or circumstances his opinion would be right, but in the present case there appeared or seemed to me some difference, etc."
What was the result of this new approach?
"I soon found the advantage of this change in my manner; the conversations I engaged in went on more pleasantly. The modest way in which I proposed my opinions procured them a readier reception and less contradiction; I had less mortification when I was found to be in the wrong, and I more easily prevailed with others to give up their mistakes and join with me when I happened to be in the right."
Now, I realize that many of you have a fervent zeal regarding your faith and around your understanding of scripture. And I know it can be frustrating when you happen upon someone else who in the same breath both dares to call himself a Christian and yet, disagrees with you on points of doctrine that, to you anyway, seem obvious and practically axiomatic...
But...while I'm sure your intentions are good, and while I'm sure you feel somehow it is your duty to right any wrongthink that deals with the topic of Christ and salvation and all that good stuff...may I humbly suggest that if your goal really is to help others see the error of their ways, that you consider this advice before letting your fingers run across that keyboard too quickly?
I know this may sound crazy, but it IS possible for two sincere and intelligent Christians to see various points of doctrine in very different ways.
Now, maybe your way IS the right way, but what kind of a chance do you honestly think you stand of helping a fellow patriot see the light that you see if you speak to him as if he's dumber than a Democrat and twice as dangerous? I realize you may feel that his error may even risk his salvation but isn't that all the more reason to tread carefully and speak respectfully?
And if you fail to sway him, is it really necessary to imply that the only reason you have is because he's secretly a demon of some kind? Can't you humbly accept the possibility that you just weren't very persuasive in this instance, and pray for wisdom about how to become more persuasive in the future? I know it's tempting to flex your knowledge and fire off scriptures you're sure will settle the question and go medieval on your perceived opponent if it fails to do the trick but maybe...just maybe...a bit more patience and respect might be in order?
And maybe, just maybe, you yourself could maybe even (gulp) be in the wrong from time to time? And if you are, wouldn't you want to know?
But how can you if your own ego is fired up and you're caught in a battle of wits and name-calling with someone who, quite frankly, is only here because they love this country like you do, and is likely discussing this particular topic with you, because, like you, he also loves God, Jesus, and the Bible, just like you do? Is that really someone you want to offend?
Anyway. Like I said, I know I'm just as guilty as anyone on this topic from time to time, and I wrote this as a reminder to myself as much as anyone else, but hopefully others will read this and maybe pivot their own approach as well.
WWG1WGA
Cheers.
*edit - Link to the pdf of Ben Franklin's autobiography, where I got this, should anyone desire to read it: https://icrrd.com/media/31-10-2020-083612How%20to%20Win%20Friends%20and%20Influence%20People%20-%20Dale%20Carnegie.pdf
It's also quoted in "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie.
Why is this stickied? Because this method of communication applies to ALL forms of disagreement -- even those with normies. It's a good strategy to use for getting someone on your side, or to get someone to awaken.
As the saying goes, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
You can catch even more flies with manure.
I never knew what it meant to be "stickied" or where it goes...so thanks for your information about clicking permalink....
One of many reasons I post/comment so little here. The "critics" come out in droves if they disagree with something. I read, learn and keep my comments to myself now. Too many people get butthurt
I comment, then RARELY return to read replies.
Why?
I try to look at certain posts that I make as "planting seeds" for other people. Will my post give a person a new perspective? I hope so but that's completely out of my control.
I do this also.
Only way to live on Reddit anymore 😂
I feel ya on that one.
New response copy pasta-
Okay Ben... https://greatawakening.win/p/16amiANP9t/to-all-those-who-consider-themse/
We need your comments. I'm trying to read everything I can get my hands on since I began questioning "his story". I Can't possibly read everything. Since you also read, your comments on what you learned may point me in a direction I haven't considered. Just my humble opinion.
+1 for a high-energy thread.
I have a comment to make. I am a conservative, reserved Christian, and never post to the Scripture/prayer threads for a couple of different reasons. I read your thread because of your interesting OP.
The handful of times I've had EXTREMELY unpleasant interactions with other members of this forum, where they went completely off the rails, disregarding the rules of the forum, calling names, etc., etc., despite me remaining civil and reasonable, on topics having nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity...were all members who post frequently to the Scripture/prayer threads. I know this because I reviewed their post history.
Why is that?
Because they are cultists just like the commies? They were just socialized or brainwashed into a Christian religion.
That is why I do not like organized religion.
Give me my Christ straight, without the trappings.
Whenever you have an organized religion or a "church" you have to get people involved to maintain it.
There's a saying: the more times people touch a thing (a process, a file, for example), the greater the opportunities to screw it up.
Religion is no exception.
Organized religion has too many people touching it.
It's both and, not either or.
The New Testament epistles repeat over and over the idea of "one." One body of Christ united by one baptism. One Church that is the pillar of truth. One faith and one set of belief. If we deny the Church entirely, we deny the possibility of knowing Christ fully and truthfully.
Part of Christ's ministry on earth was to establish His Church, multiple times He speaks of building His Church. Without the Church, we have no certitude or authority of which we're able to know what beliefs are true and what are wrong. Without viewing Scripture in the context of the Church, we fall into dangerous beliefs like nestorianism, arianism, anti-Trinitarianism, so on and so forth.
I understand the notion of rejecting "organized religion", but it's antithetical to the entirety of the Bible. God killed people for worshipping Him incorrectly, God established a liturgy, rituals, priesthoods, temples, and organized structure to the OT Faith. There are extensives passages in Exodus that talk about the liturgy and the organized structure of worship.
The Apostles did the same, they established a liturgy, priesthoods, clerics, jurisdictions, churches, held councils, etc. To deny the organized religion aspect is to deny the Bible.
This is top shelf wisdom. Ben Franklin's friend's statements are so humbling when their truth is realized > "You know so much that no man can tell you anything." / "So you are not likely ever to know any more than you do now, which is very little."
I have a sincerely strong belief in God, Jesus, and the Bible, but in my awakening process I realized that I had been deceived into being sure that what I had been taught by leaders of the "spiritual" organization that I was a part of was absolutely true. Upon realizing that I was wrong, I needed to apply this wisdom in my own life to quickly get over the shame of being wrong. I am now on the most exciting and enlightening leaning path of my life.
That WAS a striking notion - I've heard the words "unteachable spirit" before, but this is a fine secular example. "If you think you know everything you are unlikely to ever know anything more than you do now".
Boy, Ben's friend really had a way with words, eh? ;-)
I think Ben was lucky to have a friend like that. And I think he realized it too.
That he listened is amazing. Most people that are THAT sure they know everything don't listen. A good friend indeed!
It is so important to us humans to feel that we are "right", and that drive can lead to being on the wrong side of Jesus and therefore Christianity. I too have come to the realization that I have said and done many things that were wrong. I thought I was doing good!
I am trying to keep my mouth shut, and really follow Jesus's teachings. Matthew 5:43-45. Love your enemy. I struggle with that!
This is a really nice post.
The only thing I know for sure is that I don't know anything for sure. That's sort of how I approach any discussion.
Excellent advice. Christians tend to eat their own.
Thank you so much for this fantastic post, OP!
Some simple, logical questions of your "opponent" are the easiest way to gain understanding of his viewpoint. And, perhaps in seeking to understand him, errors in thinking are revealed on both sides.
Like with most "cult" behaviors regardless of label...."those who SCREAM the loudest" The Great Awakening will come to Christianity as well. Divine Light will transmute all that is not Divine Light. I think the loud protesters will be humbled in the end or may become part of the 4-6%. That whole speck in the eye vs the log thing, ya know. Popcorn moments.
Methinks this method be so goode as to be worthy of application in a multitude of thematic disagreements amongst otherwise like-minded Patriots, and not to be constrained solely to those discussions of questions divine but to worldly matters as well.
So, umm, ... Yup: good points all.
But don't despair. Keep looking for the good commenters, because most folks here are awesome. Just check out the prayer threads to see the overwhelming goodwill that comes from the vast majority of anons. And don't feel guilty about blocking the ones that can't be civil.
I am new to Christianity. When I picked up a bible I started with Genesis. The best advice I was given by a pastor was to start with the Gospels of Jesus; Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I am now trying to live more like Jesus and everything I read in scripture I relate back to what Jesus said or did. Probably the most influential passages I have read so far on my journey finding Jesus has been:
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:36-40
With that said with almost every discussion I enter into I seek to learn, and in order to do that I have to recognize where I may be wrong, but that doesn't mean I should back down when the argument hasn't convinced me.
I'm not seeking to "win a debate", I'm searching for the truth.
Edit: with that said great post. Now that I'm older I realize my whole understanding of history is based on what people did not their interactions with others, which may have been distorted through propaganda. I'm always looking for sources to understand history better without the manipulation or "government approved" sources.
Ive been told Im diplomatic bc I can have a conversation without arguments based on my word choices. The hard part is when others get nasty.
People have been rude to me bc I have my own ideas after reading the Bible. They attacked my ideas. It made me feel they were disconnected from Jesus in that moment. I wish we could all be kinder especially to our fellow brothers and sisters. Thank you for reminding us!
Reminds me of a convo I had about taxes and the “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s” quote the tax collectors are so fond of.
Turns out that a better (one I like better) translation is “Give to Caesar what he DESERVES and to God what he DESERVES.
It is easy to make someone angry when you go against long held beliefs.
My rephrase on Render unto Caesar. " Render unto Caesar what IS Caesars, not what Caesar THINKS is Caesars." No offense intended Lord.
My opinion: Statists use only part of the quote because they want to make it seem like Jesus was saying to pay allegiance to government.
Use the whole quote and follow it by asking "What belongs to God?".
Beautifully stated!
I have read both books but that was so long ago I have forgotten much of what was read...your excerpt from Franklin's autobiography was excellent ...advice that is worthy of consideration...I love sharing ideas and inevitably you do come across areas of disagreement so this is great advice to try to incorporate...thanks for taking the time to make such a meaningful post...
Doctrinal difference of opinion exists and the differences will not send anyone to Hell….There is only ONE interpretation of the Gospel however. Error here is permanent.
Differences of doctrine are a big deal. It’s impossible for most of the different faiths to be worshipping the same god since they disagree on basic attributes!
I think that this idea is not about minimizing anything or compromising, just about how we package what we say.
Well said orthobro.
Funny how everyone's version of God can exist. Some worship a god that preaches unconditional love and yet built an eternal torture chamber of torment with zero chance at rehabilitation.
"Love your enemies and forgive those that trespass against you... And while you're doing that, I'll be over here torturing people for their beliefs." -God
That "zero chance" notion is not what Orthodox Christianity teaches, and I'm Orthodox, so that inconsistency isn't present in my beliefs (part of why I became Orthodox actually).
Also the second half your "quote" of God is neither the letter or the spirit or the truth of what is recorded in the Bible, so it's a strawman in so far as a Christian believes the Bible.
Anosha and I are Orthodox, we don't view Hell that way.
Everyone experiences the same eschaton, Heaven and Hell are perceptions of God's presence based on how we've lived our lives. Paul says that God is an "all-consuming fire", the wicked experience God as fire because they hate Him, while the righteous experience God as warmth and joy because they love Him.
God doesn't send us to Hell or torment us, rather the torment the wicked experience is their perception of God's presence. It's not some place God arbitrarily sends people to because they didn't believe the right thing, and God judges people in different ways depending on their circumstances.
That's a lot of programming.
What if you reject the deity of Christ?
Then they'll attack you personally. It happens here all the time. You can't attack their faith, they'll attack you. They don't understand good people can believe shitty things. If you don't believe as they do, you're worthy of scorn and ridicule. Because you' were critical of their dogma.
It's always personal to them.
message well received thank you. I have deleted more than a few comments in the past. I try to refrain altogether.
As the old saying goes...
"Only a fool knows everything. A wise man knows how little he knows."
. My faith is that when I leave this Earth I will know the rest of what I need to about Jesus. What he meant by what he said and did. I do not have to understand everything as a mortal human. Or insist someone else does. Invite him into your heart, listen for intuitive guidance, be honest and compassionate and be careful with whom you spend time with that they are not deceivers or otherwise evil. Since I have a TBI I do have to keep it simple. Jesus is my partner in all things.
I always find the 'you're not the right type of Christian' posts/comments amazing.
We on this forum are fighting for the sake of the world against literal demons --- and there are some on this forum that want to pick a fight with good and moral people that share 99.7% of their views --- but go to a different church.
Just kidding. Good advice, OP. Thanks for sharing.
"Now we see as in a dark mirror." We can't see clearly. We can't see depth or details. And a mirror reverses the image anyway.. Many an argument over the Bible is based on translations of languages most don't know and about events in a context out of our experience. I know sometimes I don't resist calling out what I see as gross historical revisionism, but that's a slippery slope too. God will sort the sheep and goats eventually.
I love that Biblical passage..."the greatest of these is love"...it keeps us humble...knowing how little we truly know and understand about ANYTHING...which is why the Holy Spirit is so instrumental in our understanding of all matters pertaining to God...
It is so wonderful to have the creator of the universe as our co-pilot.
I like all the ones that say God wants to save everyone. To me that means He has a plan around a lot of the things that people would say are a deal-breaker.
Well...unfortunately our gift of "free choice" is the determining factor...but you are right...if it were up to God...He would save everyone...that is the agape love that only He possess...how absolutely humbling...how vast God's love, grace and mercy is...to such undeserving sinners...
This is an excellent post and wonderful advice to us all in life generally. This post gets printed on paper! To ponder frequently. Many thanks.
I agree. I’m a Christian and there is so much division on doctrine when none of us knows the final answer but God Himself. All we can do is follow as best we can
There are certainly some interpretations that are just flat out wrong or intentionally disingenuous , but to get into big arguments with someone over an honest and good faith interpretation of scripture is pretty arrogant. Pretty wild for someone to think they alone hold the one true meaning of God's word, especially when they never even saw it in the original language.
According to Ephesians 4, we are to diligently keep the oneness of the Spirit, because we are all believers born of one Father by one Spirit, with lowliness, with meekness, with longsuffering bearing one another in love,(v.1-3) until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith, i.e.,the things we believe.(v.13) This requires that we no longer be little children (v.14) but grow up into the Head, Christ,(v.15) out from whom the Body builds itself up in love (v.16)
Ep 4:1 I beseech you therefore, I, the prisoner in the Lord, to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called,
Ep 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing one another in love,
Ep 4:3 Being diligent to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace:
Ep 4:4 One Body and one Spirit, even as also you were called in one hope of your calling;
Ep 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Ep 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Ep 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Ep 4:8 Therefore the Scripture says, “Having ascended to the height, He led captive those taken captive and gave gifts to men.”
Ep 4:9 (Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Ep 4:10 He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.)
Ep 4:11 And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers,
Ep 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,
Ep 4:13 Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Ep 4:14 That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error,
Ep 4:15 But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,
Ep 4:16 Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love.
Good post and it applies to all subjects. For those who start shrieking and being condescending, I just tune them out and disengage. It's juvenile to get personally nasty towards someone you're trying to have a discussion with when you disagree on a topic - not to mention unproductive, too. Some have been shills, of course, fairly easy to identify.
On the other hand, I've had some good conversations here with those who have a different perspective on scripture, different understanding of what was meant from what's written. We've gone back and forth stating our positions to each other with reasons presented, ending still with respectful disagreement. There are some really fine, mature anons here who I'd gladly engage in conversations with coming from opposing or even just non-aligning perspectives.
Your advice and examples here are top-notch, IMHO, a well-presented topic. I enjoyed the Ben Franklin background, too. Thanks, OP.
Good post.