Pay for performance doesn't work bc teachers are working with "raw materials" of varying quality.
You wouldn't pay a blacksmith for how many horseshoes he made when you were delivering him different quality metals to produce them with.
The same goes for children. There are structural and psychological and other issues which impede ability to learn. It is profoundly wrong to expect equal results from them
Well said. I don’t have a problem with the idea of merit pay. I want to see it actually working. But, until you have actually been there, in a classroom of 30 with special needs kids, ADHD, kids who don’t want to be there, helicopter parents whose kiddo can do no wrong….😳.
It can be done, but not every child is going to cross the same finish line at the end of the year. Parents need to support their child and the teacher/school. Teachers need to have some discretion in how to teach.
I’ve been a retired teacher for about 14 years. I find myself thinking about the DOE finally being abolished and the education of our children is now in the hands of state & local communities. I believe this is an exciting time to be an educator.
This is true. I had a student with cerebral palsy or something (it's been 20 years, I forget) and his parents would send him in to school with soiled diapers bc the aide was certified to change him.
My wife cared for a really skinny autistic kid last year. He ALWAYS came to school with dirty clothes, greasy hair, dirt under his nails and a voracious appetite.
We suspected that the younger brother was manipulating him by locking the autistic boy outside and stealing his meals since the younger boy was very overweight.
He often had bruises and would reenact the fights he had with "someone" at home.
Soooooo many emails and calls home went nowhere because the single mother didn't care and the police couldn't intervene.
indeed. Also people follow incentives. Book Freakanomics point out in one study - (chicago I believe it was...of course) - that when an area ties financial incentives to test scores - teachers and institutions just started cheating on behalf of the students so they can boost their pay. (Oh I get a bonus if you all score 100% on the test? - ok here are the answers, thanks for the bonus check!)
Measuring improvement over classes baseline should give pay benefits maybe - but it needs to have a lot of checks and balances to avoid devolving into just another scam of fraud reporting.
My sincerest Apologies that you still haven't learned much about the Learning Capacity of Humans....
Yes, we are all different, but the only difference between me and my Friend XXXXX is that he CHOSE to be an asshole and stay home smoking Weed an when he did try to join the Army, he CHOSE to be an ASSHOLE and get kicked out for Fighting in Basic Training....
I did 6 Years in, and have TWO Honorable Discharges, among other accolades....
I am my own Self Made Man, Alcoholic by my own Choice, RETIRED, whereas he might never retire....
Same Age, Same Grade, Same school, Exactly the Same Educations, Different Metals....
My condolences that you have no concept of the differences in learning capacity of people born with disabilities, exposed to lead, etc etc. And clearly lack the empathy and humility to try to understand that your perspective is limited.
God bless you friend and may he open your eyes to that which I speak of.
Oh I get the Real Disabilities, but LEAD isn't one of them, I and ALL of my friends grew up in houses with Lead Based Paint, absolutely NONE of us ever ATE any of the paint chips, and IF we had, we would have gotten beaten within an inch of our lives for eating a NONFOOD SUBSTANCE, plus called Stupid for about a year by our Friends for doing so, that whole thing about kids eating Paint Chips is a 100% Total LIE....
Vaxxxines on the other hand....
But even my most Mentally disabled Friend was intelligent enough to know most of the Common Sense things that these current Moronic Generations think they need LABEL WARNINGS for....
My Perspective isn't ""LIMITED"", its very well Earned, Collected, Condensed, Collated, and Summarized, we've been bamboozled, lied to, an frauded, we have been Mentally Abused, Mislead, Misinformed, and heavily Propagandized, especially in the direction where, some lean into Emotions to an allow Empathy to rule their Minds, whereas others move towards Logic an Common Sense to find out what is it, and Why is it....
Way too many People lean way too heavily upon their Emotions, I no longer do, I have had enough of other people manipulating me via my Emotions, that shit ended a very long time ago, and I have worked from Logic and Common Sense ever since, because Emotions Dictate you Cole the Scraped Knee, or the Skinned Elbow, while Ignoring the Slippery Floor that Caused each, or you Punish the Janitor for Mopping, and not the children running into the WET FLOOR AREA....
Joey:: Touches That, Screams in pain, has a first or Second Degree Burn on his fingers, an is now pissed his pants, shit himself, vomited profusely, and is in need of Medical Attentions....
Dad:: {As he administers First Aid} I told you to NOT Touch that, because it would hurt you, an now you have been hurt....
Joey:: [Later after bawling his ass off] Why didn't you tell me???
Dad::: Joey, I did tell you, I told you to Not Touch that because it would hurt you, but you went an DISOBEYED me an touche it anyway, an you got yourself Hurt. Do You see??
And this is where we are in our Society.....
The ADULTS keep saying ""Don't Do That"" it will ENSLAVE YOU.....
And the Child Minded keep Pushing to DO THAT....
I really hope you get the Jist of this, it isn't that I'm being unemotional, it's just that I WAS Joey, an now I'm Dad, and, through EXPERIENCE, I know Better.....
Oh I get it, I'm a dad too...but there are people like a child I follow on FB that has leukodystrophy. He attends school, but will never understand a lot of what he will learn, because of his genetic condition. He is non verbal in 3rd grade. The happiest and nicest kid you'd ever want to meet but he literally cannot do certain things neurological kids can do. In a walker, etc.
There's def the type you talk about that don't want to or are too lazy or distracted by the world to do what they should but there are plenty like my friend who sadly will never be able to do those things though they'd love to.
Then there are the kids abused, forced to be drug mules for their parents, if they have them, falling asleep in my 2nd period English class at 14 when they're still in 7th grade bc they're out dealing drugs at night to help their mom keep the shitty rental. Kids who were hiding behind a sofa when gang members broke in and killed the family member who they lived with etc etc. I've seen a lot. Those kids need extra help to get their acts together and school does not do a good job of providing it
Well, Sometimes you get Disciplined by your Parents, sometimes by your Friends, and the rest of the time, by Life itself.....
The trick is to Learn an not Earn enough Self Discipline between the Ages of 5 and 18 so that one doesn't End Up getting Disciplined by Life in harsher ways than just a belt or Electrical Cord....
As for Special Ed Children, they have my most full heartfelt support upon their travels through this merciless plane of existence, but as a ""A TRIBE"", we Humonkeys have made their Road as smooth as we possibly can within our mediate technological and physical restrictions, this has nothing to o with emotions either, because of course we see that in the forefront, yes, they are a burden upon their Families, and as such on Society.....
That said, these next few comments may come back an kick me in the Ass, but, in other places on the planet such as Russia and the Counties of the European Union, yes I meant COUNTIES, for they are no longer States, anyway, we here in The States have made Life and Living into a Science, even with all Oppression we have been through, an all the Propaganda we have had shoved down our Collective throats, still we make FOR those less fortunate than the Average Man, many Pleasantries and Plenary Accommodations, to the point that we even put ourselves OUT of our Natural Place just to please those who would otherwise, in ANY other place EXCEPT here in the U.S., would most likely be DEAD, an there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that anyone in their right mind would ever be able to DENY that....
This 100%…years ago Louisiana teachers would get bonuses on how well their kids did on the state tests and then would help them cheat by giving them skittles or m&ms in which certain colors correlated with answers
We had a teacher who's students always got near perfect test scores in 4th and fell flat on their faces on the same tests in 5th. She was giving them answers, pretty sure. All she'd say was "I teach EXCELLENT test taking skills." 🙄 riiiight
Separate teaching and testing. The teacher should not be the person doing the testing. The testing and eval of the teachers should be done by a panel. This would help in getting rid of the fraud.
No. Eliminate govt schools entirely. Most of our property tax money goes to fund commie pubic schools. Let people keep their money and spend it on the school of their choice. Or better yet, keep Mom at home and homeschool. We homeschooled our 4 kids, and had the privilege of paying property taxes to fund the govt school, without any tax deductions for what we spent to educate our kids ourselves.
There are single parents who can’t do this. There are many grandparents who are raising their grandchildren and they can’t do this either. Getting rid of the DOE is a huge step in the right direction. Most of the BS comes from the federal level. Putting the states back in charge is a step in the right direction. School choice is a very good option as is homeschooling. Unfortunately, the rats will always find a way back into the system.
Homeschooling means that the parents decide how to educate their kids. In addition to teaching the kids themselves, they can choose group classes, regular schools, etc.. This can be adapted to anyone's situation.
That might work to an extent. I would caution that school districts that are performing admirably are usually pretty full. I worked in a school district that was conservative and known for having high expectations and parent involvement. We had a number of students from out of district, our numbers were already at max, and when I retired a few years ago our classes were overly full. Maxxed out classrooms do not make for a good learning environment.
Out of district students, at the moment, are not paying vouchers. Expanding means building more schools and yes hiring more staff, but there is no expansion in the tax base to easily cover those costs. Schools are at max right now, at the moment, because of the influx of immigrants, who also don’t pay taxes. Also, it takes time to pass bonds to build and then it takes added time to build, if bonds to build are passed by the voters. It’s not as easy as you think. Teachers wind up having to share their classroom with other teachers, secondary classrooms are crowded and support staff is spread very thin.
True enough, vouchers would help alleviate those costs. I taught 29 years. My first year teaching I was a “floater”. I moved from one classroom to the next, taking each teacher’s room during their conference period. Oh, and I taught physical science and biology and coached middle school kids for 2 class periods. I had to cart my lab equipment/demonstration items from one classroom to the next. I had no room for my conference period, just a computer in the science storage hallway. That’s because our school district was growing and they had to add a science/math wing onto the high school. Yeah, I know exactly what happens when a school district has a huge jump in enrollment.
As a former teacher, pay should not be attached to state tests. Not all grades take them and students often just mark anything or refuse to mark any answers. That brings down test scores and isn’t a true reflection of whether or not a teacher taught. Principal evaluations are also subjective. I always received Exceeds Expectations on evaluations until the last 2 years I taught. I had a new principal who made it her mission to replace all white teachers with minorities and we were targeted. Under her, my evaluations resulted in needing a growth plan 2 years in a row. It sounds good to say teachers who don’t teach shouldn’t get paid but there are so many factors involved in how that is decided and many can be unfair.
This is very true. Also, most non teachers don’t realize that the harder working teachers get the tougher assignments, kids with learning disabilities that aren’t always going to make top marks.
Yes! So how is progress determined to grant the merit pay? I don’t know. But, I am interested to see how powers that be decide to set up their programs.
I think the best way would be to have the local levels determine this because they are going to have the best basis on which to make that decision, but even that will be a cause for bias in school districts. I honestly believe the only way to get rid of bad teachers is to get rid of tenure.
My employer requires reverse evaluations to weed out these type of people but I'm guessing with our current state, negatives on these would be seen as a positive by the higher up
Lunatics.
So true. I’d been hired to teach a certain program/get it going at a school. This program was based in phonics and kind of a back to basics approach to teaching Language Arts. The new principal did not agree with my ‘philosophy’ and my evaluations began to decline. 🤨
Terrible idea and it won’t work. Pay for performance is not the way. Want to attract talented teachers, pay them a salary they can live on by privatizing all education.
It is a stupid idea from a stupid man. It's basically just rewording the "no child left behind" act. All this does is incentivize teachers to lie about students grades because that's how they're funded
Merit pay isn’t going to fix a broken system. But, a broken system will subvert the intentions of a merit pay process.
A big problem with the “holy grail” argument that business does it better, is that a lot of businesses don’t. Even with the need to generate positive cash flow and a profit, way too many businesses are poorly run. And, even though they have a merit based pay process it is being abused.
The problem with primary education in the United States is the system has been overwhelmed with goals that have nothing to do with kids learning math, science, history, etc. And, too many of those goals take precedence over the foundational subjects kids are supposed to be learning.
Schools have always had a “no child left behind” policy which the admin uses to keep disruptive students in class. They get federal money based on numbers in class so Johnny can’t read because he’s watching Jimmy run around screaming and yelling and screwing around for an hour. The teacher sends them to the office and he comes back with a treat the assistant principal gave him during a two minute “counseling”.
Not sure what you’d do with 30 jimmys in one class!
Teacher performance would include peer assessments and parent feedback. I would consider including performance markers for teachers like clear, consistent communication with parents and administration on that list, too.
Imagine what would happen if teachers were teaching for the benefit of the CHILD by working with the parents of that child to identify and target areas for growth? The teacher could then, in their frequent communication with the parent, assess those targeted areas.
Many amazing teachers already do this.
Most, however, teach the state standards to students because they are teaching to a test.
Is this the man who insulted Americans on Christmas Day? He lacks empathy and respect. His opinion should be irrelevant regardless if it carries Merit.
Most teachers are too stupid to influence kids in a positive way, given their track record. They're full of shit, commie ideas that will never wash out.
You can't just flip a switch and make woke go away. These "teachers" - their brains are permanently ruined by the same education system they work in...chock full of American-hating liberal communistic ideas.
There are very few actual teachers - They are mostly administrators and instructors, doing what they are instructed to do by their "higher ups" - with less leeway than you'd think. "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach instruct.
The concept of merit and incentive is SO FOREIGN to the brains of these so called teachers, that I am not sure they'd understand it because it's too similar to evil capitalism.
Some kids are just shit. No amount of anything will make them come around...mostly because their parents are shit and that's hard to overcome.
How do you determine who did not perform? I had parents who thought I hung the moon and others (in the same class) who thought I was the worst thing that ever happened to their kiddo….? I don’t have an answer. I think poor teachers should be fired.
I also believe new teachers should spend an entire year with their ‘host’ teacher instead of just a semester or quarter student teaching. OR they should be required to spend a year substituting after they get out of college. It will teach them to walk Into any situation, think on their feet, experience different philosophies and different grade/age levels. Good background for a teacher.
Cheating on state tests is rampant especially in New York state. Teaching to the test is another problem. We need to change the whole system. We need to teach the child and forget about the test at least for a while
Teaching to the state tests is definitely a problem. Most people don’t realize that the state tests are geared to where the lowest performing student can pass. Educators are dictated to as to what to teach in their classroom as well as how the curriculum gets taught and how fast the information is taught. It’s truly crazy and I don’t know how the elementary teachers can stand this.
Some things drive you nuts!!! I had a first grader one time who had gotten a new puppy. We talked about his new puppy for a few minutes in class….the few minutes the principal happened to stop by. Later the principal told me it was wasting classroom time to have that talk. 🥺 After that, I just made sure my door was closed most of the time. 🤭
Yeah, cause how dare you try to have repertoire with your students 🙄. After a while, I just went with my gut and quit worrying about admin. My students would come back after they graduated and tell me how valuable the content they learned in my classroom was to them. That’s all I needed.
This is not "the way."
Pay for performance will increase fraud in an already fraudulent business, and this is coming out of the mouth of someone who was a fraud himself in the pharmaceutical industry. It shows his lack of knowledge of the "education" system and how bad it truly is.
Vivek is so cringe, it hurts.
Wow wow wow. I hope if this happens, at least make it fair! Former teacher here. I served an impoverished population with some students who were very needy, emotionally crippled, etc.
No way can a teacher be expected to overcome family upheaval and economic instability in a child’s life. This change has to at least partially come from stable families. Yes, there are the Ben Carsons of the world, but believe me, those are the minority.
Also, merit based on student grades isn't going to be a true test. Let's take my son as a great example. In English class, he does the homework and projects, but for whatever reason HE DOES NOT TURN IT IN. So, he gets an F for that homework/project. He gets A's on the tests he takes. It's not the teacher's fault that my son refuses to turn in the work.
When he takes the yearly state exam for English, he tests as "advanced." But his grade in class is still an F because he won't turn in the work. Was the teacher good, bad, or did my son just be a slacker, as usual? Why is that the teacher's fault? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Now I agree that a teacher should be evaluated on performance, I just don't know what the metric should be for that performance. Perhaps it should be many things so when there is a failure at one point (like a student not turning in their work), the teacher isn't punished across the board for that one failure.
Just hire 20 Indian developers instead! Educate those kids in 6 years not 12! By the time they are 14 they should already have 5 years of working experience!
I agree, and my now retired 47-year educator husband says there's only one fair way to measure that: test each student at the beginning of the year, and test them again at the end of the year. The difference is the amount they learned.
Yep in 09 it was a big idea. I was a teacher around then and the idea was floated for merit based pay based on student performance but we've already seen administrators fudge tests scores and refuse to expel students for cause to keep federal money coming so you know unscrupulous teachers would just do what they had to do to keep hitting that bonus. This isn't t sales.
Teacher training isn't a thing. You got a degree and a teachers license (not even necessary for some states) and off you go. If you thought going to school was a horrible soul crushing experience, try working in one.
Can't wait to protest against this big pharma vaccine pusher when he runs for office. Going to be fun seeing him go against the Amish with his mandates.
Anyone who volunteers to be a teacher nowadays has to be a masochist.
Since cell phones were invented and then given to babies to distract them, it is impossible for them to listen to real human voices and pay attention to a teacher.
The instant dopamine hits from the phone have destroyed any desire to do anything mentally difficult.
One problem with this idea...vaccines ruin the children to the point where capability to focus or apply themselves is now a major limiting factor to their academic success.
So, we should have some sort of equation to adjust pay accordingly. Or, maybe not. Maybe teachers will push to end dangerous vaccines if they know their paychecks depend on it.
The unions will never allow it, as there are far more mediocre members than exceptional ones.
It would also create a situation where the best teachers gravitate towards the schools with the best performance, when they are probably most needed in the shitty schools.
This would definitely help the system, that and reducing the administration and the fluff paperwork. Many good teachers left the system because they got more work piled on them in the form of more students per class period and more preps to teach than their non performing peers. If you sucked at your job, admin would give you fewer students and fewer preps, good teachers got dumped on.
Yeah, I was in a good school district but this bs occurred regularly. I retired because I got really tired of this bs. Loved my students, loved the content I got to teach, but I was on the receiving end of making up for low performing colleagues.
Teaching and testing need to be totally separated too.
The person paid to teach you should not be the one who decides if you learned anything. Total conflict of interest.
Pay for performance doesn't work bc teachers are working with "raw materials" of varying quality.
You wouldn't pay a blacksmith for how many horseshoes he made when you were delivering him different quality metals to produce them with.
The same goes for children. There are structural and psychological and other issues which impede ability to learn. It is profoundly wrong to expect equal results from them
Well said. I don’t have a problem with the idea of merit pay. I want to see it actually working. But, until you have actually been there, in a classroom of 30 with special needs kids, ADHD, kids who don’t want to be there, helicopter parents whose kiddo can do no wrong….😳.
It can be done, but not every child is going to cross the same finish line at the end of the year. Parents need to support their child and the teacher/school. Teachers need to have some discretion in how to teach.
I’ve been a retired teacher for about 14 years. I find myself thinking about the DOE finally being abolished and the education of our children is now in the hands of state & local communities. I believe this is an exciting time to be an educator.
All raw materials have a base line to start.
Kids don't. Beyond maybe breathing, eating, and walking upright. I've worked with all ability levels and backgrounds.
Which is not to say I have the answers. I don't. That's why I don't teach anymore.
This is true. I had a student with cerebral palsy or something (it's been 20 years, I forget) and his parents would send him in to school with soiled diapers bc the aide was certified to change him.
That's horrible and so irresponsible.
My wife cared for a really skinny autistic kid last year. He ALWAYS came to school with dirty clothes, greasy hair, dirt under his nails and a voracious appetite.
We suspected that the younger brother was manipulating him by locking the autistic boy outside and stealing his meals since the younger boy was very overweight.
He often had bruises and would reenact the fights he had with "someone" at home.
Soooooo many emails and calls home went nowhere because the single mother didn't care and the police couldn't intervene.
That's so sad. 😞
But that's exactly why "pay for performance" isn't a viable education compensation plan too
indeed. Also people follow incentives. Book Freakanomics point out in one study - (chicago I believe it was...of course) - that when an area ties financial incentives to test scores - teachers and institutions just started cheating on behalf of the students so they can boost their pay. (Oh I get a bonus if you all score 100% on the test? - ok here are the answers, thanks for the bonus check!)
Measuring improvement over classes baseline should give pay benefits maybe - but it needs to have a lot of checks and balances to avoid devolving into just another scam of fraud reporting.
My sincerest Apologies that you still haven't learned much about the Learning Capacity of Humans....
Yes, we are all different, but the only difference between me and my Friend XXXXX is that he CHOSE to be an asshole and stay home smoking Weed an when he did try to join the Army, he CHOSE to be an ASSHOLE and get kicked out for Fighting in Basic Training....
I did 6 Years in, and have TWO Honorable Discharges, among other accolades....
I am my own Self Made Man, Alcoholic by my own Choice, RETIRED, whereas he might never retire....
Same Age, Same Grade, Same school, Exactly the Same Educations, Different Metals....
My condolences that you have no concept of the differences in learning capacity of people born with disabilities, exposed to lead, etc etc. And clearly lack the empathy and humility to try to understand that your perspective is limited.
God bless you friend and may he open your eyes to that which I speak of.
Oh I get the Real Disabilities, but LEAD isn't one of them, I and ALL of my friends grew up in houses with Lead Based Paint, absolutely NONE of us ever ATE any of the paint chips, and IF we had, we would have gotten beaten within an inch of our lives for eating a NONFOOD SUBSTANCE, plus called Stupid for about a year by our Friends for doing so, that whole thing about kids eating Paint Chips is a 100% Total LIE....
Vaxxxines on the other hand....
But even my most Mentally disabled Friend was intelligent enough to know most of the Common Sense things that these current Moronic Generations think they need LABEL WARNINGS for....
My Perspective isn't ""LIMITED"", its very well Earned, Collected, Condensed, Collated, and Summarized, we've been bamboozled, lied to, an frauded, we have been Mentally Abused, Mislead, Misinformed, and heavily Propagandized, especially in the direction where, some lean into Emotions to an allow Empathy to rule their Minds, whereas others move towards Logic an Common Sense to find out what is it, and Why is it....
Way too many People lean way too heavily upon their Emotions, I no longer do, I have had enough of other people manipulating me via my Emotions, that shit ended a very long time ago, and I have worked from Logic and Common Sense ever since, because Emotions Dictate you Cole the Scraped Knee, or the Skinned Elbow, while Ignoring the Slippery Floor that Caused each, or you Punish the Janitor for Mopping, and not the children running into the WET FLOOR AREA....
IT comes own to something like this::
Dad:: Hey Joey, Don't Touch That, it's hot, it'll hurt you....
Joey:: Touches That, Screams in pain, has a first or Second Degree Burn on his fingers, an is now pissed his pants, shit himself, vomited profusely, and is in need of Medical Attentions....
Dad:: {As he administers First Aid} I told you to NOT Touch that, because it would hurt you, an now you have been hurt....
Joey:: [Later after bawling his ass off] Why didn't you tell me???
Dad::: Joey, I did tell you, I told you to Not Touch that because it would hurt you, but you went an DISOBEYED me an touche it anyway, an you got yourself Hurt. Do You see??
And this is where we are in our Society.....
The ADULTS keep saying ""Don't Do That"" it will ENSLAVE YOU.....
And the Child Minded keep Pushing to DO THAT....
I really hope you get the Jist of this, it isn't that I'm being unemotional, it's just that I WAS Joey, an now I'm Dad, and, through EXPERIENCE, I know Better.....
Oh I get it, I'm a dad too...but there are people like a child I follow on FB that has leukodystrophy. He attends school, but will never understand a lot of what he will learn, because of his genetic condition. He is non verbal in 3rd grade. The happiest and nicest kid you'd ever want to meet but he literally cannot do certain things neurological kids can do. In a walker, etc.
There's def the type you talk about that don't want to or are too lazy or distracted by the world to do what they should but there are plenty like my friend who sadly will never be able to do those things though they'd love to.
Then there are the kids abused, forced to be drug mules for their parents, if they have them, falling asleep in my 2nd period English class at 14 when they're still in 7th grade bc they're out dealing drugs at night to help their mom keep the shitty rental. Kids who were hiding behind a sofa when gang members broke in and killed the family member who they lived with etc etc. I've seen a lot. Those kids need extra help to get their acts together and school does not do a good job of providing it
I see what you are saying also though
Well, Sometimes you get Disciplined by your Parents, sometimes by your Friends, and the rest of the time, by Life itself.....
The trick is to Learn an not Earn enough Self Discipline between the Ages of 5 and 18 so that one doesn't End Up getting Disciplined by Life in harsher ways than just a belt or Electrical Cord....
As for Special Ed Children, they have my most full heartfelt support upon their travels through this merciless plane of existence, but as a ""A TRIBE"", we Humonkeys have made their Road as smooth as we possibly can within our mediate technological and physical restrictions, this has nothing to o with emotions either, because of course we see that in the forefront, yes, they are a burden upon their Families, and as such on Society.....
That said, these next few comments may come back an kick me in the Ass, but, in other places on the planet such as Russia and the Counties of the European Union, yes I meant COUNTIES, for they are no longer States, anyway, we here in The States have made Life and Living into a Science, even with all Oppression we have been through, an all the Propaganda we have had shoved down our Collective throats, still we make FOR those less fortunate than the Average Man, many Pleasantries and Plenary Accommodations, to the point that we even put ourselves OUT of our Natural Place just to please those who would otherwise, in ANY other place EXCEPT here in the U.S., would most likely be DEAD, an there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that anyone in their right mind would ever be able to DENY that....
This 100%…years ago Louisiana teachers would get bonuses on how well their kids did on the state tests and then would help them cheat by giving them skittles or m&ms in which certain colors correlated with answers
Came here to say this. It sounds like a great idea on paper, but dishonest teachers will always find a way to cheat - as history shows us.
A lot of teachers will put more effort into manipulating the test scores, than educating the students.
We had a teacher who's students always got near perfect test scores in 4th and fell flat on their faces on the same tests in 5th. She was giving them answers, pretty sure. All she'd say was "I teach EXCELLENT test taking skills." 🙄 riiiight
They're just going to teach the test. Like some do now.
Separate teaching and testing. The teacher should not be the person doing the testing. The testing and eval of the teachers should be done by a panel. This would help in getting rid of the fraud.
Have to admire their creativity
In Ireland we have a scam operation by teachers, they also do after hours “grinds” to help students they haven’t taught properly in the first place.
The parents pay the teachers for this service directly.
Yeah, they've already proven to be lying cheats now when there's no real incentive for it, imagine if it meant they get paid more.
Yep. No one can read, find the US on a map, or count past 10 without taking off their socks....
Class Average : 100%
In Oregon, it used to be like that. Back during the days when it was good.
No. Eliminate govt schools entirely. Most of our property tax money goes to fund commie pubic schools. Let people keep their money and spend it on the school of their choice. Or better yet, keep Mom at home and homeschool. We homeschooled our 4 kids, and had the privilege of paying property taxes to fund the govt school, without any tax deductions for what we spent to educate our kids ourselves.
There are single parents who can’t do this. There are many grandparents who are raising their grandchildren and they can’t do this either. Getting rid of the DOE is a huge step in the right direction. Most of the BS comes from the federal level. Putting the states back in charge is a step in the right direction. School choice is a very good option as is homeschooling. Unfortunately, the rats will always find a way back into the system.
How would a single mother afford to stay home and home school?
Homeschooling means that the parents decide how to educate their kids. In addition to teaching the kids themselves, they can choose group classes, regular schools, etc.. This can be adapted to anyone's situation.
Let the parents decide.
Parents need vouchers so they can take their kids to whichever school they want, public or private.
That would quickly force public schools to perform or lose students in droves.
That might work to an extent. I would caution that school districts that are performing admirably are usually pretty full. I worked in a school district that was conservative and known for having high expectations and parent involvement. We had a number of students from out of district, our numbers were already at max, and when I retired a few years ago our classes were overly full. Maxxed out classrooms do not make for a good learning environment.
A school that is maxed out but receiving a constant inflow of money, will be able to expand and hire more staff.
They wouldn't be constrained by fixed or shrinking budgets.
Out of district students, at the moment, are not paying vouchers. Expanding means building more schools and yes hiring more staff, but there is no expansion in the tax base to easily cover those costs. Schools are at max right now, at the moment, because of the influx of immigrants, who also don’t pay taxes. Also, it takes time to pass bonds to build and then it takes added time to build, if bonds to build are passed by the voters. It’s not as easy as you think. Teachers wind up having to share their classroom with other teachers, secondary classrooms are crowded and support staff is spread very thin.
I was talking about if parents had vouchers to spend at good schools, those schools would have the money to expand.
It all starts with vouchers.
My dad taught elementary for over 30 years, and I worked at a school for 10 years so I know about how schools operate.
True enough, vouchers would help alleviate those costs. I taught 29 years. My first year teaching I was a “floater”. I moved from one classroom to the next, taking each teacher’s room during their conference period. Oh, and I taught physical science and biology and coached middle school kids for 2 class periods. I had to cart my lab equipment/demonstration items from one classroom to the next. I had no room for my conference period, just a computer in the science storage hallway. That’s because our school district was growing and they had to add a science/math wing onto the high school. Yeah, I know exactly what happens when a school district has a huge jump in enrollment.
I will vote for pick your own school.
I'm totally with you on this.
As a former teacher, pay should not be attached to state tests. Not all grades take them and students often just mark anything or refuse to mark any answers. That brings down test scores and isn’t a true reflection of whether or not a teacher taught. Principal evaluations are also subjective. I always received Exceeds Expectations on evaluations until the last 2 years I taught. I had a new principal who made it her mission to replace all white teachers with minorities and we were targeted. Under her, my evaluations resulted in needing a growth plan 2 years in a row. It sounds good to say teachers who don’t teach shouldn’t get paid but there are so many factors involved in how that is decided and many can be unfair.
Thanks for the insight.
Money talks. I agree
This is very true. Also, most non teachers don’t realize that the harder working teachers get the tougher assignments, kids with learning disabilities that aren’t always going to make top marks.
Yes! So how is progress determined to grant the merit pay? I don’t know. But, I am interested to see how powers that be decide to set up their programs.
I think the best way would be to have the local levels determine this because they are going to have the best basis on which to make that decision, but even that will be a cause for bias in school districts. I honestly believe the only way to get rid of bad teachers is to get rid of tenure.
My employer requires reverse evaluations to weed out these type of people but I'm guessing with our current state, negatives on these would be seen as a positive by the higher up Lunatics.
So true. I’d been hired to teach a certain program/get it going at a school. This program was based in phonics and kind of a back to basics approach to teaching Language Arts. The new principal did not agree with my ‘philosophy’ and my evaluations began to decline. 🤨
There are way too many “woke” administrators in our public schools.
Agreed!
Agreed
Terrible idea and it won’t work. Pay for performance is not the way. Want to attract talented teachers, pay them a salary they can live on by privatizing all education.
It is a stupid idea from a stupid man. It's basically just rewording the "no child left behind" act. All this does is incentivize teachers to lie about students grades because that's how they're funded
Problem is all the rich will afford the best teachers and schools.
Merit pay isn’t going to fix a broken system. But, a broken system will subvert the intentions of a merit pay process.
A big problem with the “holy grail” argument that business does it better, is that a lot of businesses don’t. Even with the need to generate positive cash flow and a profit, way too many businesses are poorly run. And, even though they have a merit based pay process it is being abused.
The problem with primary education in the United States is the system has been overwhelmed with goals that have nothing to do with kids learning math, science, history, etc. And, too many of those goals take precedence over the foundational subjects kids are supposed to be learning.
Well articulated, my Fren.
I am seeing that it is a lot more complicate. Thanks for all the comments.
This.
Schools have always had a “no child left behind” policy which the admin uses to keep disruptive students in class. They get federal money based on numbers in class so Johnny can’t read because he’s watching Jimmy run around screaming and yelling and screwing around for an hour. The teacher sends them to the office and he comes back with a treat the assistant principal gave him during a two minute “counseling”.
Not sure what you’d do with 30 jimmys in one class!
LOL
Teacher performance would include peer assessments and parent feedback. I would consider including performance markers for teachers like clear, consistent communication with parents and administration on that list, too.
Imagine what would happen if teachers were teaching for the benefit of the CHILD by working with the parents of that child to identify and target areas for growth? The teacher could then, in their frequent communication with the parent, assess those targeted areas.
Many amazing teachers already do this.
Most, however, teach the state standards to students because they are teaching to a test.
This is what is done in India.
It leads to rampant cheating.(from all sides)
OH.
Is this the man who insulted Americans on Christmas Day? He lacks empathy and respect. His opinion should be irrelevant regardless if it carries Merit.
Oh. I thought he is a good guy.
I had to scroll down 3 pages to find the first comment not from a Boomer.
Unless that business is the NFL, NBA. MLB & NHL....
Of course.
Special Ed.
There are some problems with this methodology:
Most teachers are too stupid to influence kids in a positive way, given their track record. They're full of shit, commie ideas that will never wash out.
You can't just flip a switch and make woke go away. These "teachers" - their brains are permanently ruined by the same education system they work in...chock full of American-hating liberal communistic ideas.
There are very few actual teachers - They are mostly administrators and instructors, doing what they are instructed to do by their "higher ups" - with less leeway than you'd think. "Those who can, do. Those who can't,
teachinstruct.The concept of merit and incentive is SO FOREIGN to the brains of these so called teachers, that I am not sure they'd understand it because it's too similar to evil capitalism.
Some kids are just shit. No amount of anything will make them come around...mostly because their parents are shit and that's hard to overcome.
I see what you meant. There's a lot to do.
and pay cuts for non performers
No. Fired.
How do you determine who did not perform? I had parents who thought I hung the moon and others (in the same class) who thought I was the worst thing that ever happened to their kiddo….? I don’t have an answer. I think poor teachers should be fired.
I also believe new teachers should spend an entire year with their ‘host’ teacher instead of just a semester or quarter student teaching. OR they should be required to spend a year substituting after they get out of college. It will teach them to walk Into any situation, think on their feet, experience different philosophies and different grade/age levels. Good background for a teacher.
Make sure you speak up on such info if it ever come to a vote.
This is a great idea.
Cheating on state tests is rampant especially in New York state. Teaching to the test is another problem. We need to change the whole system. We need to teach the child and forget about the test at least for a while
Teaching to the state tests is definitely a problem. Most people don’t realize that the state tests are geared to where the lowest performing student can pass. Educators are dictated to as to what to teach in their classroom as well as how the curriculum gets taught and how fast the information is taught. It’s truly crazy and I don’t know how the elementary teachers can stand this.
Some things drive you nuts!!! I had a first grader one time who had gotten a new puppy. We talked about his new puppy for a few minutes in class….the few minutes the principal happened to stop by. Later the principal told me it was wasting classroom time to have that talk. 🥺 After that, I just made sure my door was closed most of the time. 🤭
Yeah, cause how dare you try to have repertoire with your students 🙄. After a while, I just went with my gut and quit worrying about admin. My students would come back after they graduated and tell me how valuable the content they learned in my classroom was to them. That’s all I needed.
I did too. I had a few middle school kids come back, and one after college if you can believe it. But few come back to see a primary teacher. Cheers!
I remember every single teacher by name that I had from K-8. You guys are very important.
That is really nice. 😊
Sounds good at first. I understand about study for test.
This is not "the way." Pay for performance will increase fraud in an already fraudulent business, and this is coming out of the mouth of someone who was a fraud himself in the pharmaceutical industry. It shows his lack of knowledge of the "education" system and how bad it truly is. Vivek is so cringe, it hurts.
I would like to think he meant well.
Not sure I like the inevitable outcome of some teacher yelling at my child because of how my child did on a standardized test or something.
Some kids learn that way.
Wow wow wow. I hope if this happens, at least make it fair! Former teacher here. I served an impoverished population with some students who were very needy, emotionally crippled, etc.
No way can a teacher be expected to overcome family upheaval and economic instability in a child’s life. This change has to at least partially come from stable families. Yes, there are the Ben Carsons of the world, but believe me, those are the minority.
School choice is a good idea.
Uh good luck taking on the teachers' union.
Also, merit based on student grades isn't going to be a true test. Let's take my son as a great example. In English class, he does the homework and projects, but for whatever reason HE DOES NOT TURN IT IN. So, he gets an F for that homework/project. He gets A's on the tests he takes. It's not the teacher's fault that my son refuses to turn in the work.
When he takes the yearly state exam for English, he tests as "advanced." But his grade in class is still an F because he won't turn in the work. Was the teacher good, bad, or did my son just be a slacker, as usual? Why is that the teacher's fault? You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Now I agree that a teacher should be evaluated on performance, I just don't know what the metric should be for that performance. Perhaps it should be many things so when there is a failure at one point (like a student not turning in their work), the teacher isn't punished across the board for that one failure.
Oh that's right. The hidden hand of the teachers union.
Just hire 20 Indian developers instead! Educate those kids in 6 years not 12! By the time they are 14 they should already have 5 years of working experience!
Vivek the slave trader! YES!
Maybe that's what he meant. Don't know.
We already tried the No Child Left Behind Act, it was an unmitigated mess. The only solution is school choice.
I like that idea of school choice.
I agree, and my now retired 47-year educator husband says there's only one fair way to measure that: test each student at the beginning of the year, and test them again at the end of the year. The difference is the amount they learned.
Like many things, the devil is in the details.
Amen.
They’ll cheat so hard nobody will learn anything but the test answers
LOL
Not a new idea. Obama era idea. Pass.
Oh, did Obama say that?
Yep in 09 it was a big idea. I was a teacher around then and the idea was floated for merit based pay based on student performance but we've already seen administrators fudge tests scores and refuse to expel students for cause to keep federal money coming so you know unscrupulous teachers would just do what they had to do to keep hitting that bonus. This isn't t sales.
Teacher training isn't a thing. You got a degree and a teachers license (not even necessary for some states) and off you go. If you thought going to school was a horrible soul crushing experience, try working in one.
Used to think teaching and working in school is great. Then I have to go to school and I couldn't wait to get out.
Public education has never been a good idea. Dressing it up is a waste.
I believe you are right.
When teachers pass students who can't read..... yeah, like the valedictorian who just graduated last year and is illiterate.
Ya. I cannot believe it.
Can't wait to protest against this big pharma vaccine pusher when he runs for office. Going to be fun seeing him go against the Amish with his mandates.
Oh that's right. He did collude with pharma.
This is racist because teachers in certain neighbourhoods have dumber kids, or kids from degenerate families where many of them don't have a father.
Oh. You know. That's true.
Anyone who volunteers to be a teacher nowadays has to be a masochist.
Since cell phones were invented and then given to babies to distract them, it is impossible for them to listen to real human voices and pay attention to a teacher.
The instant dopamine hits from the phone have destroyed any desire to do anything mentally difficult.
It's truly sad.
One problem with this idea...vaccines ruin the children to the point where capability to focus or apply themselves is now a major limiting factor to their academic success.
So, we should have some sort of equation to adjust pay accordingly. Or, maybe not. Maybe teachers will push to end dangerous vaccines if they know their paychecks depend on it.
I like the teachers to push for end dangerous vaccines.
Don't know anything about tenure. It's worth a good discussion.
Oh. I see what you are talking about now. We called it the golden handcuff.
I'm surprised he isn't pushing for H1B teachers from India
Not going to accept that because their accents so thick you cannot understand them.
Exactly, and remove the bottom 10% of performers every year.
There's still a lot to hash out.
The unions will never allow it, as there are far more mediocre members than exceptional ones.
It would also create a situation where the best teachers gravitate towards the schools with the best performance, when they are probably most needed in the shitty schools.
That's probably true. Wow.
This would definitely help the system, that and reducing the administration and the fluff paperwork. Many good teachers left the system because they got more work piled on them in the form of more students per class period and more preps to teach than their non performing peers. If you sucked at your job, admin would give you fewer students and fewer preps, good teachers got dumped on.
Is it? It's basically the no child left behind act, where teachers lie about their students grades because that's how they get funded
Oh. I did not know.
Yeah, I was in a good school district but this bs occurred regularly. I retired because I got really tired of this bs. Loved my students, loved the content I got to teach, but I was on the receiving end of making up for low performing colleagues.