Iām ok with states choosing even though Iām pro life and abhor any abortion. People should put them up for adoption instead.
Iām my 70ās now and never had my own kids. It was devastating at the time. So I understand the desperation of infertile couples trying to fo whatever is possible to conceive a child. Even in vitro. That being said I stopped short of doing in vitro. I ended up adopting my only child from Catholic Charities when she was only a month old. She was the product of a teen pregnancy.
I'm 65 and was adopted at a year old from a St. Vincent de Paul home for unwed mothers. I always figured, she got knocked up and the father was shipped off to Viet Nam.
This is why there is no point in playing the abortion game anymore. State rights is the best way they could feasibly go, because poster (and people like it) above will be ravenous in the same way the left is ravenous.
As our resident Trumpette said, you made it personal because you are more adamant about your beliefs. Being adamant is fine, but here's a news flash:
"I'm in my 70s now"
This means the fight that you demand they fight is no longer theirs to fight. It's ours. It's the people 18+, the people still young enough to go out and actually fight it.
Demanding a 70+ year old go out and fight our battles for us is cowardice.
So, to be clear, you're going to withhold your vote from Trump because his effort was to make it a states rights issue and believes in exceptions?
Because obviously you'll be a hypocrite if you don't, and if you do then you're shooting both yourself and the rest of the country in the foot out of spite.
Exactly. Humans are humans. There will be premarital sex. Guilty as charged myself. Itās been going on forever.
But we should ban birth control because of the hormones it releases into the water. Condoms are fine but people need to be more responsible. I am not even against Plan B.
But I agree with some others here. We have bigger fish to fry and abortion isnāt even a top 10 issue for me. I care far more about getting a Republican or moderate at governor in Washington State. Even with the insane voter fraud here a candidate who would want to outright ban abortion would be a disaster here.
I know some people on here want that but Trumpās stance is perfect. We have all the momentum in the world currently. Our focus needs to be economy, foreign policy, the border and crime
Give it to Trump to beat the inevitable āmy body my choiceā nonsense thatās bout to come up in this election year. Now he can just point it to the states and be done with it so we can focus on winning back our country into Gods hands.
The problem with contraceptives (including plan B) as a concept is that it directly clashes with Catholics as well, so that opens up another group that will never fully be happy unless there is no opposition.
That's why I say it's an unwinnable battle and that it is best to leave it to the states where -- in theory -- the majority of people within a state can override the cities of, say, California.
But that starts by having a conversation and debate, with facts and moral arguments combined.
We are not at the point where we can snap our fingers, ban abortion, and expect things to go our way. We need to build popular support or else we will never win on this issue.
Building popular support by having debates with people who are willing to argue with us in good faith, too.
If someone is willing to hear our opinions and we are willing to hear theirs, and cease with this "ree don't platform people I don't agree with" nonsense that the left endlessly pushes, then we will win.
We will win because we know actual science is on our side, as well as the morality and honesty that we have.
There are people who aren't chronically online who will listen in good faith on both sides of this argument, and simply put our argument is stronger because we want to preserve life.
IVF for those that cannot conceive is a blessing for couples and a miracle of life.
It is an alternate way to conceive and bring forward the miracle of birth.
We win by persuasion, not banning. Banning results in Democrats winning elections.
I disagree. You're not accounting for God.
Unborn children are fully human from the moment of conception. In fact the first person to recognize Jesus was John the Baptist while they were both was still in the womb. The premeditated taking of a human life is defined as murder and scripture calls for capital punishment.
Here's the part that's important...
"God curses a nation that sheds innocent blood."
By allowing the slaughter of innocent children we are bringing God's judgment upon our nation. Not just judgment after we're dead, judgment now.
When God wants to judge a nation one of the ways He does that is by sending them wicked rulers. It also appears many other ways from droughts, floods, natural disasters, moral and cultural decline, corruption, degeneracy, and much more.
God is sovereign over everything including elections. God doesn't call us to simply win elections and work top down. God calls us to be faithful and stand in the gap for the innocent.
My Church wrote the amicus brief that overturned Roe v Wade. We run www.EndAbortionNow.com and have equipped churches around the world to fight abortion in a biblical way. We have bills of full abolition pending across the country. We produced the documentaries "babies are murdered here" and "babies are still murdered here" (both free online, go watch them)
Our work is responsible for closing dozens and dozens of abortion facilities. We lost count of how many babies have been saved by this ministry years ago.
We are very much in this fight and we have seen God move an incredible ways time and time again. We have a absolute shoestring budget and are a small church in Mesa Arizona but by being faithful God has used us to move political mountains. We've accomplished more in just a few years than the entire pro-life establishment has accomplished in the last 40 years. How? Being faithful and consistent with scripture.
Outlaw child sacrifice. God will do the rest. This nation would turn around and become righteous and prosperous so fast it would make your head spin.
I'm thankful that at least at this point we've made it a states rights issue. It took a lot of work for us to get here. The next step is getting the first state to criminalize it then others will soon follow. You will see not only the curse lifted off the states that criminalize it but also the blessings that God will pour down on the states. The dichotomy of states that celebrate child sacrifice versus the states that criminalize it will quickly become apparent.
God is sovereign over reality. God doesn't call for careful men, he calls for faithful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.
I didn't question your faith. But now I'm definitely questioning your understanding of scripture based off that response.
You know I'm sure there were a few people that were telling Joshua that marching around Jericho and circles and blowing trumpets wasn't very strategic and wasn't going to win the battle. But the walls crumbled. Not because of strategy and planning, because of God. And God did it in such a way that everyone would know it was Him.... when His people were faithful even when commanded to approach a problem in a impossible or improbable way. That's reality.
Oh and I guarantee you if I was trying to insult you, you'd know it.
See how far scripture gets you with every Leftist woman and beta male who was going to sit out the November election but is now leaping off the couch to vote against DJT after he takes the Stand you want him to take.
You'll see Biden win the Presidency. You'll see down ballot Republicans losing elections they would have won. You'll see Democrats taking control of state legislatures and consequently you'll see abortion expand dramatically in its accessibility and term across the country.
Personally, I'm more interested in winning this war than platitudes.
If getting what was right and just was simply a matter of praying and believing in scripture, the world would be a far better place. But it's not because there is evil in the world. We fight evil by praying, but we fight evil by fighting SMART. Over the decades, political stupidity has undone a mountain of good.
I swear, some of you don't seem to realize that DJT is literally the first President in your lifetime that's actually fighting against abortion; not just speaking out against it like Reagan did. Trump made actual political maneuvers to end Roe vs Wade at the federal level and get it to the states where we can start chipping away. And there's a half dozen of you on here that are railing against him because he didn't take the noble stand you wanted him to take.
Again, I want to win this war. I'm willing to do what it takes to win this war and it's apparent that so does DJT. Are you?
"Oh and I guarantee you if I was trying to insult you, you'd know it."
For God's sake, get over yourself.
Because of Trump we no longer have Roe vs Wade. That is huge! But we donāt need to become like the Dems and make more laws on the federal level that states canāt keep up with. Red states are already coming along but for blue states it will take a bit longer to tear down the walls. The people need to be shown and the day will come when they realize they have murder on their hands. But we need patience to get there - not bans which will just lead this back underground and out of sight. We need to win people over to realize abortion is a horrendous act. Because of Roe vs Wade it became (at least 50%) socially accepted. But that empire is gone so letās not make any more federal abortion laws but instead get to a point where people can realize this is wrong and a crime against humanity. That is when we will finally see local change and states may start to come around.
Did I say scripture alone? No I did not. Faithfulness means action as well as prayer and scripture.
Let me say it again.... Action.
If you're interested in winning the war, then you should submit to God and address these issues from a top-down perspective and not a bottom-up perspective. God brings every victory, not your unbiblical strategies. God is smarter than you. Calling being consistent with scripture "political stupidity" is hopefully the stupidest thing I'll hear all day but if you reply to this comment I'm sure it won't be.
I love the absolute misrepresentation that myself and my organization where you suggest we haven't done a significant amount to when this war. We wrote the amicus brief that overturned Roe v Wade. We have bills of full abolition and criminalization pending all over the nation. We have equipped churches around the world and provided training and resources for them to fight abortion at a local level. We have lost count of how many babies we saved and we've closed multiple abortion facilities. We've produced two documentaries about abortion that have received millions and millions of views as well as countless YouTube videos.
What exactly have you done?
I'll remind you you were the one that accused me of insulting you when I was addressing an issue, not you. Now you're making personal attacks. Keep projecting.
You seem to have a very small and limited view of God and his sovereignty. But hey at least your pocket sized God makes you feel bigger.
Stop compensating. Stop capitulating. Be a faithful man that stands on scripture.
Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths."
We donāt need a ban as murder is already banned in 50 states. Leave it to the states to decide whether to allow murder on the innocent and let them have blood on their hands. The day will come when people finally realize what theyāve done is child murder and the only way out of that is through repentance.
I understand where you're coming from, SAA and I agree with you on both counts.
It is a tragedy of incalculable proportions that it's legal and happens every day. But we're slowly winning this battle and we haven't been able to say that for a very long time.
"The day will come when people finally realize what theyāve done is child murder and the only way out of that is through repentance."
I agree. And I could not imagine having that stain on my soul.
I felt awful enough when I realized I put blood on the ink by voting democrat in the last decade. Abortion was never an issue for me I was just a normie who wanted to vote for those āwho helps othersā. Yes I fell for the lie and had one too many blue pills. This until I realized by Gods Grace that abortion in fact is child sacrifice. It took some repentance on that one and forgiveness to my self for being so ignorant in my younger years. Without God I donāt think I could ever forgive myself for something like that and I pray for those women who were fooled into thinking itās ok to pull that baby out being itās been socially accepted and under the disguise of womenās rights and feminism
You are completely right and God bless you for doing God work and fighting for the innocent unborn. Now that Roe-wade is gone and itās been declared a state issue just need people to realize that abortion is murder - an act which is outlawed in all 50 states.
Exactly. Now instead of hearing all the my body my choice bs talking points perhaps we can have an actual debate about what constitutes murder and what constitutes a person - the latter has never been truly defined although Supreme Court does have the power to do so.
My Church wrote the amicus brief that overturned Roe v Wade.
The result of which was leaving it to the states.
It's all good and dandy to want to take it further, but by overturning Roe vs Wade, the argument has been strengthened against a nationwide ban as well.
It is a double edged sword, but fortunately in reality even if we don't have a nationwide ban, we now have the opportunity to convince enough people to bypass cheating and fraud on an individual state level, thereby eventually achieving the same thing.
Murder is federally illegal. 18 U.S.C. Ā§ 1111 defines murder as the unlawful killing of a human being with malice.
It's not strictly a state's issue. If our federal government would recognize the fact that an unborn child is fully human from the moment of conception We could wrap this right up.
Even if we defined life at a federal level most states still have statutes on the books that would instantly make abortion illegal in those states.
Should slavery be a state issue? Same category. Dehumanizing a group of people in order to enact someone else's will upon them.
This was my response to another post saying the same thing:
That's the rub, isn't it? The world has disagreed many times on what constitutes murder and the criteria that needs to be met.
Fortunately, we have an opportunity that we did not have before because we were held hostage by a federal ruling that wasn't even based in honesty.
It doesn't strictly matter that murder is illegal if the criteria of what murder is or isn't, who is guilty or isn't guilty, who constitutes a person or doesn't, is fluid.
The states rights is a stepping stone, but it's an important one. We won't win a fight by aiming for the grand prize when there are a ton of other steps we have to take first.
But by taking a step down the states' rights path, we stepped away from a path that led directly to a national ban.
The next path leads to a philosophical battle to get people to understand that an unborn baby is still human, which causes people to vote in favor of banning abortion in their states, which also leads to recognition of that fact.
I must admit this is a dark day to see more down votes for your comment then up votes. I stand with you. You are either against abortion or for it; no in-between. You cant serve the world and God at the same time. Look up Matthew 6:24-26
Doing nothing is a sin of omission. I would look at James 4:17 too; we can't pass the buck to others. Truly anyone who calls themselves a Christian must be against abortion. You are either all in or not at all; we can't pick and choose what we want to follow....again, sad to see so many who are ok with the state choosing.
I will say this doesn't change my stance on Trump the plan as we all are sinners short of perfection; but I will pray that he and others see the error of their ways repent and move for real change.
I support Trump. He's the greatest president of my lifetime.
I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted honestly. I think maybe people are misconstruing My position on abortion with me somehow not supporting Trump in general.
I've been in this fight for the lives of the unborn for years now at a level that virtually no one on the subreddit could relate to. I'm very close to this issue and the success that my church has had in this area has been solely based off of how consistent with scripture and faithful we've been.
What would shock some people is to know that one of our biggest opponents in getting full abolition and criminalization legislation on the books has been the existing pro-life establishment that only wants to practice incrementalism and doesn't surprisingly actually want abortion to end. If abortion was outlawed tomorrow these organizations that pull in millions and millions of dollars a year and have very high paying salaries for their leadership, would dry up in heartbeat.
At no place in scripture does God command or promote incrementalism. That concept in itself is essentially rejecting the power of God to bring change out of our faithfulness and instead leaning on our own ability and understanding when we should be faithfully trusting in God to bring the increase.
You can be 100% against abortion and yet still agree to leave it up to the states to decide. Giving the federal government more power is not the answer. We need a debate that hopefully one day will lead the Supreme Court to define what is a person and by that statement we will be able to define whether the states are legalizing murder or not.
I respectfully disagree. I just can't in good conscious stay out of the fight when we have the ability to impact that decision. Does my vote count for much? No. A drop in the ocean but its still part of that change.
However, I do 100% agree with you on big government. More power is not the answer and a debate exposing truth would be great just never see that happening; at least hasn't happened to the degree we'd like it to yet.
Tough topic, I think the point I'm trying to make is something like this:
Trumps position on allowing states to decide would be much more popular with the masses. However, at what cost? Are we sacrificing appeasement to the world over God? This is where my conflict and conviction is.
On the other side of the coin it could be argued if he doesn't take this stance then gives ammo to other side to stay in power and more evil is committed. Same analogy as would it be ok to lie if Gov was rounding up Christians in your home to protect them (yes I used a different analogy than ww2 to avoid another angle). You get the point.
So that's how I'm approaching it. I still 100% would have to stand on this hill that all abortion is murder and willfully allowing "others" to decide whether they desire to sin is still blood on my hands if I can contribute to rectifying that change.
However, again, as a realist I recognize that all men are sinful creatures and Trump will not be perfect as will be the majority of the world made up of nonbelievers and self professing Christians. Am I still behind him 100%, yes. All we can do is pray. Everything after all is in God's control.
It is and Iām a bit on the fence with this one as I have cousins who were conceived this way - but ultimately I believe God is the one in charge of that miracle - not a doctor playing God. God has given many parents who were barren the miracle of life once they step onto his righteous path. IVF takes God out of the equation unless of course God leads people there but why would he do that when he is all powerful and can make any woman pregnant by will - even a virgin like Mary or an old woman like Sarah.
It results in the destruction of scores of embryos, each a unique and precious human being. It makes children a commodity. You literally buy your child from the lab that creates him or her. That's why there are thousands and thousands frozen now, waiting to be "implanted". But most never are. What a horrifying and tragic situation. The end does not justify the means.
I understand that those who really want a baby but can't have them think IVF is a miracle.
But my personal opinion is that if God wanted you to get pregnant, you wouldn't need a team of scientists to help you. Sometimes we just have to deal with being disappointed in not getting something we wanted.
If you absolutely can't live without having a kid, there's always adoption.
100%. God gave Sarah and Abraham, Isaac at what...95+ yrs. old?
He can do anything.
Some will say - well, then we shouldn't do any sort of surgery or medicine, etc. because God can heal all those things - or, God gave us these things to use...
Most here, however, aren't terribly trusting or excited about Neurolink - or the idea of Transhumans - why?
Where's the line? Everyone has one - where they're getting their line instructions from makes the difference.
At the end of the day - pray about it.
For me and my house - who likely fall into the category of not being able to have kids - we're not crossing this line on our own and believe that if God wants us to have a kid, we will.
I've seen way too many times what happens when we take things like this into our own hands instead of surrendering it to God's plans.
Probably not day 1. Iād expect with the pineal gland, but wouldnāt want to knowingly gamble, either. Souls are 100% very real things. Some people can see them (donāt exploit this like mediums do, very, very bad idea. They arenāt to be interacted with.), and it has been confirmed to me.
u/BetterNameUnfound ās argument against IVF is interesting, and has some merits, but also isnāt ritualistic child sacrifice and industrialized body part harvesting of post-1st trimester abortion. There may be better messaging to get out around some moral issues but I also agree we have bigger fish to fry.
For sure, just pointing out the far worse branch of their little tree.
We could probably fix the IVF issue just by encouraging proper familial practices again. I personally think the current ādatingā ātraditionā needs to be replaced immediately, for starters.
I can attest that I have experienced and looked into the eyes of the human soul. Itās magical and feels like looking into the eyes of God. Most if not all humans are not aware of this which is why you canāt interact with the soul - but you can experience its presence and God may speak through them to you.
Trump's response is a typical "Fail Safe" response...milk toast! Abortion is murder and blatantly Unconstitutional! The baby has a beating heart, finger prints, pumping blood...it is a living human being with all the rights and Constitutional protections as any person living outside the mother's womb. Abortion in any circumstance is killing an innocent baby...plain and simple! We either have and obey our failing Constitution or we do not.
I know our Constitution is very weak in it's own right in the protection and guarantee of our God given rights, but it's what we have and should at minimum obey it and hold our elected leaders feet to the fire when they go against it...no matter who they are or the excuses they hide behind!
Recognizing the heart felt passion fueling this opinion.
Offering hopefully helpful feedback
Motivated by a desire to improve passionates ability to persuade others to agree with them.Typically, presenting an opinion as if its an established fact, what those who have studied Logic refer to as a "fallacy of assertion" is NOT persuasive unless "preaching to the choir" ie to people who are ALREADY persuaded.
When someone seeks to persuade by starting with "FACTS", especially facts based on ABSTRACTIONS like "our Constitution" or the bible, rather than engaging with them as a real person and seeking to understand their FEELINGS, that someone typically does far more harm than good.
Examples of harm include triggering poisonous emotions, creating toxic associations with positive things like our Constitution and the bible and hardening hearts.
In reality, FEELINGS do NOT care about your FACTS (until the person cares about you).
Pharisees approach == deployi the LAW and PUNISHMENT and FEAR
Christs approach == build a RELATIONSHIP based on True LOVE that transforms and motivates so the person listens to Him, wants to please Him and accepts His guidance.
Obviously, President Trump is a wise, courageously loving and Light Hearted human being. He's also a persuasion genius.
In 2016 he famously said in a tweet that Republicans did NOT know how to win (hearts and minds) but "I will teach them!"
As promised, he's been offering priceless lessons for free ever since.
Hopefully more and more people will accept rather than automatically reject what he's offering, really listen to what he's trying to tell them and start taking his words to heart.
Otherwise they'll continue to lose and others will continue to pay the costs.
Thanks for the input, but your way off base in your analysis of my approach to this subject.
If I was alone with an expectant mother, your approach...or some semblance of it...would be better for sure. I wouldn't attack an expectant, terrified mother who was the victim of rape or incest with my "corporate feelings about abortion." That would be cruel and inhuman.
However, that's not the situation here. I am talking to people who might take Trump's attitude toward abortion and how it fits or doesn't fit within the framework of our legal system and our Constitution. Not sure how you determine our Constitution and the Bible are ABSTRACTIONS? But I digress...
Anyway, it's really easy to use Jesus as some champion of all love and gush, gush...but this portrayal of the God/Man is actually quite Un-Biblical. Yes, Jesus was incarnate love...but he was also God and He dealt with corporate sin very passionately and in a very harsh way. To the woman caught in the act of adultery our Lord showed incarnate love and compassion never to be matched. He created this dear woman and loved her immensely. However, that same Jesus called the Jewish leaders of His day a "Brood of Vipers." (Matthew 3:7) and the Jewish money men Jesus used physical violence to drive them out of the synagogue! In fact, Jesus (because of the great sins of the entirety of Jerusalem) called the entire population of Jewry the Synagogue of Satan!. Jesus called them this in part because of their attitude toward the sin of sacrificing children to Molech. There's no difference between the Jews acceptance of sacrificing children to Molech than killing children in their mothers womb...you are still murdering a baby! He delt with the corporate evil with passion and forceful truth...not milk toast love as you would suggest I handle my passion against abortion and Trump's answer to it.
As a society, we need to tell the truth about abortion in technicolor. However, let me end with this...as evil as abortion is...the good news is that a mother's choosing to have an abortion is not looked upon by God as any worse than any other sin a person makes on any given day. The compassion of Christ comes in the wonderful truth that Jesus died and rose from the dead to free us from our sin (any and all sin) and all women can have the instant cleansing of Jesus from any sin including abortion.
Murder is the unlawful killing of a Natural Person.
A natural person being someone that was Born Naturally.
Since the time of Aristotle to the founding of this nation a fetus wasn't believed to be infused with a soul until the quickening. (4th month)
Even then it wasn't until the 1800's that abortion laws were being written and they were to protect the woman from a botched abortion in which she died, not the fetus.
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." 1 Samuel 15:3
I say let Amalek smite themselves. They may be citizens but they are not my tribe or your tribe.
I will also point out that since before the Biblical flood Born Naturally children were sacrificed to Molech. Using your logic, because it's been done that way for most of history, it's ok? The word "Fetus" is used by the abortion industry and the medical establishment in order to take the humanity away from the child. A baby just becomes a lump of cells in the eyes of the unthinking public.
You can call the baby a fetus, or determine in your own mind that it has no rights and isn't part of humanity because it has not been born naturally, but this is just semantics...anyone whose seen the photos of an abortion or watched a baby in a sonagram knows it's a living human being...not some fetus waiting for it's humanity to be conferred upon "IT" when it is out of the womb. That whole argument is just either based on pure evil or pure ignorance!
Even state laws show the hypocrisy in this Natural Person argument when it determines it's ok for a doctor to murder the baby in the womb by chopping it up without any anesthesia, but if you cause and a vehicle accident that causes the death of the mother and her so called "fetus," you are charge with 2 counts of involuntary manslaughter. So, it's a person when the mother wants to keep it and it's not a person if she doesn't?
Here's what God says on the subject...
Psalm 139:13-16 ~ For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Jeremiah 1:5 ~ "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
I gave you legal definitions and some history. You gave me distortions and emotional appeals.
If you want to play these games where we imply what the other believes then let's play. We receive birth certificates, not conception certificates. If you want to place abortion on the same level as murder you have to inspect women monthly and issue conception certificates. When a miscarriage happens it will have to be investigated as a possible murder. That's your position, is it not? It should be. How else are you going to enforce such murder laws? Especially in the age of the internet and international travel? Do you enjoy invading people's privacy?
Keep in mind miscarriages are common and are often unnoticed. They also exceed the number of medically induced abortions...
Our son turns 9 years old today. It took 7 long years of infertility treatment culminating in a successful ivf pregnancy. It was a long road and we feel extremely blessed to have him in our lives now.
Iām ok with states choosing even though Iām pro life and abhor any abortion. People should put them up for adoption instead.
Iām my 70ās now and never had my own kids. It was devastating at the time. So I understand the desperation of infertile couples trying to fo whatever is possible to conceive a child. Even in vitro. That being said I stopped short of doing in vitro. I ended up adopting my only child from Catholic Charities when she was only a month old. She was the product of a teen pregnancy.
I'm 65 and was adopted at a year old from a St. Vincent de Paul home for unwed mothers. I always figured, she got knocked up and the father was shipped off to Viet Nam.
whoa, this is a disgusting way to respond. You made it personal.
This is why there is no point in playing the abortion game anymore. State rights is the best way they could feasibly go, because poster (and people like it) above will be ravenous in the same way the left is ravenous.
As our resident Trumpette said, you made it personal because you are more adamant about your beliefs. Being adamant is fine, but here's a news flash:
"I'm in my 70s now"
This means the fight that you demand they fight is no longer theirs to fight. It's ours. It's the people 18+, the people still young enough to go out and actually fight it.
Demanding a 70+ year old go out and fight our battles for us is cowardice.
As I said, you made it emotional and personal.
You are behaving like a child instead of a rational adult. Behaving like a child demanding someone older than them take care of the issue for you.
The cause is just, but you aren't going to successfully win a war by attacking your own side so directly.
Ask how it helped the left when they attacked Hillary critics in 2016.
So, to be clear, you're going to withhold your vote from Trump because his effort was to make it a states rights issue and believes in exceptions?
Because obviously you'll be a hypocrite if you don't, and if you do then you're shooting both yourself and the rest of the country in the foot out of spite.
I would rather have a total abortion ban. Everywhere.
However, we have bigger fish to fry at the moment.
We can deal with killing babies once the pedophiles in power, and their pedophile puppetmasters, are dealt with.
It will be easier once more people understand how deeply they have been lied too.
Letās pray for the conversion of sinners. They will come to realize how any sin no matter how grave offends our loving and good God
I believe this. The younger generation seems to be much more prolife in general (except the crazy brain washed Uber liberal, LGBT satanic crowd)
I am for avoiding the need to even have an abortion to begin with.
It's not realistic to tell young boys "Hey.. wait until you are married".
I remember being a young boy. Looking at girls was a big part of growing up.
So the message should be simple.
You should wait until marriage.
BUT!
If you fall into the emotional trap. PLEASE WEAR PROTECTION to prevent disease and unwanted child births.
This is a middle of the ground solution.
It's how I was raised.
Exactly. Humans are humans. There will be premarital sex. Guilty as charged myself. Itās been going on forever.
But we should ban birth control because of the hormones it releases into the water. Condoms are fine but people need to be more responsible. I am not even against Plan B.
But I agree with some others here. We have bigger fish to fry and abortion isnāt even a top 10 issue for me. I care far more about getting a Republican or moderate at governor in Washington State. Even with the insane voter fraud here a candidate who would want to outright ban abortion would be a disaster here.
I know some people on here want that but Trumpās stance is perfect. We have all the momentum in the world currently. Our focus needs to be economy, foreign policy, the border and crime
Give it to Trump to beat the inevitable āmy body my choiceā nonsense thatās bout to come up in this election year. Now he can just point it to the states and be done with it so we can focus on winning back our country into Gods hands.
The problem with contraceptives (including plan B) as a concept is that it directly clashes with Catholics as well, so that opens up another group that will never fully be happy unless there is no opposition.
That's why I say it's an unwinnable battle and that it is best to leave it to the states where -- in theory -- the majority of people within a state can override the cities of, say, California.
I couldn't agree more.
"wait until marriage" ain't the issue for incest and rape.
Correct
Just think how many babies we would save by taking out the pedos
We must not become them. Raise & convert people who will venerate life.
People will be more willing to ban abortion once itās uncovered that itās the literal lifeblood of their evil empire
But that starts by having a conversation and debate, with facts and moral arguments combined.
We are not at the point where we can snap our fingers, ban abortion, and expect things to go our way. We need to build popular support or else we will never win on this issue.
And that means doing more than piss about in GAW.
Building popular support by having debates with people who are willing to argue with us in good faith, too.
If someone is willing to hear our opinions and we are willing to hear theirs, and cease with this "ree don't platform people I don't agree with" nonsense that the left endlessly pushes, then we will win.
We will win because we know actual science is on our side, as well as the morality and honesty that we have.
There are people who aren't chronically online who will listen in good faith on both sides of this argument, and simply put our argument is stronger because we want to preserve life.
IVF for those that cannot conceive is a blessing for couples and a miracle of life. It is an alternate way to conceive and bring forward the miracle of birth.
Alternative to what tho? Gods willā¦?
A deft political move; Very, very smart.
We win by persuasion, not banning. Banning results in Democrats winning elections.
I disagree. You're not accounting for God.
Unborn children are fully human from the moment of conception. In fact the first person to recognize Jesus was John the Baptist while they were both was still in the womb. The premeditated taking of a human life is defined as murder and scripture calls for capital punishment.
Here's the part that's important... "God curses a nation that sheds innocent blood."
By allowing the slaughter of innocent children we are bringing God's judgment upon our nation. Not just judgment after we're dead, judgment now.
When God wants to judge a nation one of the ways He does that is by sending them wicked rulers. It also appears many other ways from droughts, floods, natural disasters, moral and cultural decline, corruption, degeneracy, and much more.
God is sovereign over everything including elections. God doesn't call us to simply win elections and work top down. God calls us to be faithful and stand in the gap for the innocent.
My Church wrote the amicus brief that overturned Roe v Wade. We run www.EndAbortionNow.com and have equipped churches around the world to fight abortion in a biblical way. We have bills of full abolition pending across the country. We produced the documentaries "babies are murdered here" and "babies are still murdered here" (both free online, go watch them)
Our work is responsible for closing dozens and dozens of abortion facilities. We lost count of how many babies have been saved by this ministry years ago.
We are very much in this fight and we have seen God move an incredible ways time and time again. We have a absolute shoestring budget and are a small church in Mesa Arizona but by being faithful God has used us to move political mountains. We've accomplished more in just a few years than the entire pro-life establishment has accomplished in the last 40 years. How? Being faithful and consistent with scripture.
Outlaw child sacrifice. God will do the rest. This nation would turn around and become righteous and prosperous so fast it would make your head spin.
I'm thankful that at least at this point we've made it a states rights issue. It took a lot of work for us to get here. The next step is getting the first state to criminalize it then others will soon follow. You will see not only the curse lifted off the states that criminalize it but also the blessings that God will pour down on the states. The dichotomy of states that celebrate child sacrifice versus the states that criminalize it will quickly become apparent.
I'm accounting for reality.
You can try to ban it and all that will happen lost elections and abortion "rights" becoming even more pervasive.
Please don't question my faith in God and my accounting of him, it's insulting.
God is sovereign over reality. God doesn't call for careful men, he calls for faithful men. The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage.
I didn't question your faith. But now I'm definitely questioning your understanding of scripture based off that response.
You know I'm sure there were a few people that were telling Joshua that marching around Jericho and circles and blowing trumpets wasn't very strategic and wasn't going to win the battle. But the walls crumbled. Not because of strategy and planning, because of God. And God did it in such a way that everyone would know it was Him.... when His people were faithful even when commanded to approach a problem in a impossible or improbable way. That's reality.
Oh and I guarantee you if I was trying to insult you, you'd know it.
See how far scripture gets you with every Leftist woman and beta male who was going to sit out the November election but is now leaping off the couch to vote against DJT after he takes the Stand you want him to take.
You'll see Biden win the Presidency. You'll see down ballot Republicans losing elections they would have won. You'll see Democrats taking control of state legislatures and consequently you'll see abortion expand dramatically in its accessibility and term across the country.
Personally, I'm more interested in winning this war than platitudes.
If getting what was right and just was simply a matter of praying and believing in scripture, the world would be a far better place. But it's not because there is evil in the world. We fight evil by praying, but we fight evil by fighting SMART. Over the decades, political stupidity has undone a mountain of good.
I swear, some of you don't seem to realize that DJT is literally the first President in your lifetime that's actually fighting against abortion; not just speaking out against it like Reagan did. Trump made actual political maneuvers to end Roe vs Wade at the federal level and get it to the states where we can start chipping away. And there's a half dozen of you on here that are railing against him because he didn't take the noble stand you wanted him to take.
Again, I want to win this war. I'm willing to do what it takes to win this war and it's apparent that so does DJT. Are you?
"Oh and I guarantee you if I was trying to insult you, you'd know it." For God's sake, get over yourself.
Because of Trump we no longer have Roe vs Wade. That is huge! But we donāt need to become like the Dems and make more laws on the federal level that states canāt keep up with. Red states are already coming along but for blue states it will take a bit longer to tear down the walls. The people need to be shown and the day will come when they realize they have murder on their hands. But we need patience to get there - not bans which will just lead this back underground and out of sight. We need to win people over to realize abortion is a horrendous act. Because of Roe vs Wade it became (at least 50%) socially accepted. But that empire is gone so letās not make any more federal abortion laws but instead get to a point where people can realize this is wrong and a crime against humanity. That is when we will finally see local change and states may start to come around.
Well said, SAA.
Did I say scripture alone? No I did not. Faithfulness means action as well as prayer and scripture.
Let me say it again.... Action.
If you're interested in winning the war, then you should submit to God and address these issues from a top-down perspective and not a bottom-up perspective. God brings every victory, not your unbiblical strategies. God is smarter than you. Calling being consistent with scripture "political stupidity" is hopefully the stupidest thing I'll hear all day but if you reply to this comment I'm sure it won't be.
I love the absolute misrepresentation that myself and my organization where you suggest we haven't done a significant amount to when this war. We wrote the amicus brief that overturned Roe v Wade. We have bills of full abolition and criminalization pending all over the nation. We have equipped churches around the world and provided training and resources for them to fight abortion at a local level. We have lost count of how many babies we saved and we've closed multiple abortion facilities. We've produced two documentaries about abortion that have received millions and millions of views as well as countless YouTube videos.
What exactly have you done?
I'll remind you you were the one that accused me of insulting you when I was addressing an issue, not you. Now you're making personal attacks. Keep projecting.
You seem to have a very small and limited view of God and his sovereignty. But hey at least your pocket sized God makes you feel bigger.
Stop compensating. Stop capitulating. Be a faithful man that stands on scripture.
Proverbs 3:5-6: "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths."
Amen
We donāt need a ban as murder is already banned in 50 states. Leave it to the states to decide whether to allow murder on the innocent and let them have blood on their hands. The day will come when people finally realize what theyāve done is child murder and the only way out of that is through repentance.
I understand where you're coming from, SAA and I agree with you on both counts.
It is a tragedy of incalculable proportions that it's legal and happens every day. But we're slowly winning this battle and we haven't been able to say that for a very long time.
"The day will come when people finally realize what theyāve done is child murder and the only way out of that is through repentance."
I agree. And I could not imagine having that stain on my soul.
I felt awful enough when I realized I put blood on the ink by voting democrat in the last decade. Abortion was never an issue for me I was just a normie who wanted to vote for those āwho helps othersā. Yes I fell for the lie and had one too many blue pills. This until I realized by Gods Grace that abortion in fact is child sacrifice. It took some repentance on that one and forgiveness to my self for being so ignorant in my younger years. Without God I donāt think I could ever forgive myself for something like that and I pray for those women who were fooled into thinking itās ok to pull that baby out being itās been socially accepted and under the disguise of womenās rights and feminism
You are completely right and God bless you for doing God work and fighting for the innocent unborn. Now that Roe-wade is gone and itās been declared a state issue just need people to realize that abortion is murder - an act which is outlawed in all 50 states.
That's the rub, isn't it? The world has disagreed many times on what constitutes murder and the criteria that needs to be met.
Fortunately, we have an opportunity that we did not have before because we were held hostage by a federal ruling that wasn't even based in honesty.
Exactly. Now instead of hearing all the my body my choice bs talking points perhaps we can have an actual debate about what constitutes murder and what constitutes a person - the latter has never been truly defined although Supreme Court does have the power to do so.
Amen. Fellow abolitionist here. And I'd adopt in a heartbeat.
The result of which was leaving it to the states.
It's all good and dandy to want to take it further, but by overturning Roe vs Wade, the argument has been strengthened against a nationwide ban as well.
It is a double edged sword, but fortunately in reality even if we don't have a nationwide ban, we now have the opportunity to convince enough people to bypass cheating and fraud on an individual state level, thereby eventually achieving the same thing.
Murder is federally illegal. 18 U.S.C. Ā§ 1111 defines murder as the unlawful killing of a human being with malice. It's not strictly a state's issue. If our federal government would recognize the fact that an unborn child is fully human from the moment of conception We could wrap this right up.
Even if we defined life at a federal level most states still have statutes on the books that would instantly make abortion illegal in those states.
Should slavery be a state issue? Same category. Dehumanizing a group of people in order to enact someone else's will upon them.
This was my response to another post saying the same thing:
It doesn't strictly matter that murder is illegal if the criteria of what murder is or isn't, who is guilty or isn't guilty, who constitutes a person or doesn't, is fluid.
The states rights is a stepping stone, but it's an important one. We won't win a fight by aiming for the grand prize when there are a ton of other steps we have to take first.
But by taking a step down the states' rights path, we stepped away from a path that led directly to a national ban.
The next path leads to a philosophical battle to get people to understand that an unborn baby is still human, which causes people to vote in favor of banning abortion in their states, which also leads to recognition of that fact.
I must admit this is a dark day to see more down votes for your comment then up votes. I stand with you. You are either against abortion or for it; no in-between. You cant serve the world and God at the same time. Look up Matthew 6:24-26
Doing nothing is a sin of omission. I would look at James 4:17 too; we can't pass the buck to others. Truly anyone who calls themselves a Christian must be against abortion. You are either all in or not at all; we can't pick and choose what we want to follow....again, sad to see so many who are ok with the state choosing.
I will say this doesn't change my stance on Trump the plan as we all are sinners short of perfection; but I will pray that he and others see the error of their ways repent and move for real change.
I support Trump. He's the greatest president of my lifetime.
I'm not sure why I'm getting downvoted honestly. I think maybe people are misconstruing My position on abortion with me somehow not supporting Trump in general.
I've been in this fight for the lives of the unborn for years now at a level that virtually no one on the subreddit could relate to. I'm very close to this issue and the success that my church has had in this area has been solely based off of how consistent with scripture and faithful we've been.
What would shock some people is to know that one of our biggest opponents in getting full abolition and criminalization legislation on the books has been the existing pro-life establishment that only wants to practice incrementalism and doesn't surprisingly actually want abortion to end. If abortion was outlawed tomorrow these organizations that pull in millions and millions of dollars a year and have very high paying salaries for their leadership, would dry up in heartbeat.
At no place in scripture does God command or promote incrementalism. That concept in itself is essentially rejecting the power of God to bring change out of our faithfulness and instead leaning on our own ability and understanding when we should be faithfully trusting in God to bring the increase.
100% understand what you are saying brother. I'm with you. We must submit to Gods will; he is in control.
You can be 100% against abortion and yet still agree to leave it up to the states to decide. Giving the federal government more power is not the answer. We need a debate that hopefully one day will lead the Supreme Court to define what is a person and by that statement we will be able to define whether the states are legalizing murder or not.
I respectfully disagree. I just can't in good conscious stay out of the fight when we have the ability to impact that decision. Does my vote count for much? No. A drop in the ocean but its still part of that change. However, I do 100% agree with you on big government. More power is not the answer and a debate exposing truth would be great just never see that happening; at least hasn't happened to the degree we'd like it to yet.
Tough topic, I think the point I'm trying to make is something like this: Trumps position on allowing states to decide would be much more popular with the masses. However, at what cost? Are we sacrificing appeasement to the world over God? This is where my conflict and conviction is.
On the other side of the coin it could be argued if he doesn't take this stance then gives ammo to other side to stay in power and more evil is committed. Same analogy as would it be ok to lie if Gov was rounding up Christians in your home to protect them (yes I used a different analogy than ww2 to avoid another angle). You get the point.
So that's how I'm approaching it. I still 100% would have to stand on this hill that all abortion is murder and willfully allowing "others" to decide whether they desire to sin is still blood on my hands if I can contribute to rectifying that change. However, again, as a realist I recognize that all men are sinful creatures and Trump will not be perfect as will be the majority of the world made up of nonbelievers and self professing Christians. Am I still behind him 100%, yes. All we can do is pray. Everything after all is in God's control.
Ivf is not a miracle of life. More like an inversion of the creation of life
On paper, I would agree.
However, sadly, tons of embryos are thrown away before one is implanted.
And since life begins at conception, I logically have to oppose this.
It's a shame. If they didn't have to throw out conceived embryos, I'd be 100% okay with this.
Couples should be careful and request only 1 fertilized at one time.
If that's possible, yes, that seems okay.
Pending further info, of course.
I should hope so.
People have been far too liberal with IVF for a long time though.
I'm glad you guys solved this issue.
It is and Iām a bit on the fence with this one as I have cousins who were conceived this way - but ultimately I believe God is the one in charge of that miracle - not a doctor playing God. God has given many parents who were barren the miracle of life once they step onto his righteous path. IVF takes God out of the equation unless of course God leads people there but why would he do that when he is all powerful and can make any woman pregnant by will - even a virgin like Mary or an old woman like Sarah.
It results in the destruction of scores of embryos, each a unique and precious human being. It makes children a commodity. You literally buy your child from the lab that creates him or her. That's why there are thousands and thousands frozen now, waiting to be "implanted". But most never are. What a horrifying and tragic situation. The end does not justify the means.
I understand that those who really want a baby but can't have them think IVF is a miracle.
But my personal opinion is that if God wanted you to get pregnant, you wouldn't need a team of scientists to help you. Sometimes we just have to deal with being disappointed in not getting something we wanted.
If you absolutely can't live without having a kid, there's always adoption.
Playing creator is dangerous territory.
100%. God gave Sarah and Abraham, Isaac at what...95+ yrs. old?
He can do anything.
Some will say - well, then we shouldn't do any sort of surgery or medicine, etc. because God can heal all those things - or, God gave us these things to use...
Most here, however, aren't terribly trusting or excited about Neurolink - or the idea of Transhumans - why?
Where's the line? Everyone has one - where they're getting their line instructions from makes the difference.
At the end of the day - pray about it.
For me and my house - who likely fall into the category of not being able to have kids - we're not crossing this line on our own and believe that if God wants us to have a kid, we will.
I've seen way too many times what happens when we take things like this into our own hands instead of surrendering it to God's plans.
And when does the embryo get its soul?
Probably not day 1. Iād expect with the pineal gland, but wouldnāt want to knowingly gamble, either. Souls are 100% very real things. Some people can see them (donāt exploit this like mediums do, very, very bad idea. They arenāt to be interacted with.), and it has been confirmed to me.
u/BetterNameUnfound ās argument against IVF is interesting, and has some merits, but also isnāt ritualistic child sacrifice and industrialized body part harvesting of post-1st trimester abortion. There may be better messaging to get out around some moral issues but I also agree we have bigger fish to fry.
Of course it's not ritualistic child sacrifice in this case.
This is just them hating us.
...Wouldn't surprise me if they worked some ritual in there somewhere, though.
For sure, just pointing out the far worse branch of their little tree.
We could probably fix the IVF issue just by encouraging proper familial practices again. I personally think the current ādatingā ātraditionā needs to be replaced immediately, for starters.
Sorry if I worded that first post clunkily, I was intending to be agreeing with you on two points you made, then said why
I can attest that I have experienced and looked into the eyes of the human soul. Itās magical and feels like looking into the eyes of God. Most if not all humans are not aware of this which is why you canāt interact with the soul - but you can experience its presence and God may speak through them to you.
There is a flash of light at conception. This has been observed and recorded.
That is the moment when God gifts a unique life unto the embryo.
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-just-captured-the-actual-flash-of-light-that-sparks-when-sperm-meets-an-egg
In the past it was believed to happen at the time of the Quickening. But it's not an embryo at that point.
Trump's response is a typical "Fail Safe" response...milk toast! Abortion is murder and blatantly Unconstitutional! The baby has a beating heart, finger prints, pumping blood...it is a living human being with all the rights and Constitutional protections as any person living outside the mother's womb. Abortion in any circumstance is killing an innocent baby...plain and simple! We either have and obey our failing Constitution or we do not.
I know our Constitution is very weak in it's own right in the protection and guarantee of our God given rights, but it's what we have and should at minimum obey it and hold our elected leaders feet to the fire when they go against it...no matter who they are or the excuses they hide behind!
Recognizing the heart felt passion fueling this opinion.
Offering hopefully helpful feedback
Motivated by a desire to improve passionates ability to persuade others to agree with them.Typically, presenting an opinion as if its an established fact, what those who have studied Logic refer to as a "fallacy of assertion" is NOT persuasive unless "preaching to the choir" ie to people who are ALREADY persuaded.
When someone seeks to persuade by starting with "FACTS", especially facts based on ABSTRACTIONS like "our Constitution" or the bible, rather than engaging with them as a real person and seeking to understand their FEELINGS, that someone typically does far more harm than good.
Examples of harm include triggering poisonous emotions, creating toxic associations with positive things like our Constitution and the bible and hardening hearts.
In reality, FEELINGS do NOT care about your FACTS (until the person cares about you).
Pharisees approach == deployi the LAW and PUNISHMENT and FEAR
Christs approach == build a RELATIONSHIP based on True LOVE that transforms and motivates so the person listens to Him, wants to please Him and accepts His guidance.
Obviously, President Trump is a wise, courageously loving and Light Hearted human being. He's also a persuasion genius.
In 2016 he famously said in a tweet that Republicans did NOT know how to win (hearts and minds) but "I will teach them!"
As promised, he's been offering priceless lessons for free ever since.
Hopefully more and more people will accept rather than automatically reject what he's offering, really listen to what he's trying to tell them and start taking his words to heart.
Otherwise they'll continue to lose and others will continue to pay the costs.
Thanks for the input, but your way off base in your analysis of my approach to this subject.
If I was alone with an expectant mother, your approach...or some semblance of it...would be better for sure. I wouldn't attack an expectant, terrified mother who was the victim of rape or incest with my "corporate feelings about abortion." That would be cruel and inhuman.
However, that's not the situation here. I am talking to people who might take Trump's attitude toward abortion and how it fits or doesn't fit within the framework of our legal system and our Constitution. Not sure how you determine our Constitution and the Bible are ABSTRACTIONS? But I digress...
Anyway, it's really easy to use Jesus as some champion of all love and gush, gush...but this portrayal of the God/Man is actually quite Un-Biblical. Yes, Jesus was incarnate love...but he was also God and He dealt with corporate sin very passionately and in a very harsh way. To the woman caught in the act of adultery our Lord showed incarnate love and compassion never to be matched. He created this dear woman and loved her immensely. However, that same Jesus called the Jewish leaders of His day a "Brood of Vipers." (Matthew 3:7) and the Jewish money men Jesus used physical violence to drive them out of the synagogue! In fact, Jesus (because of the great sins of the entirety of Jerusalem) called the entire population of Jewry the Synagogue of Satan!. Jesus called them this in part because of their attitude toward the sin of sacrificing children to Molech. There's no difference between the Jews acceptance of sacrificing children to Molech than killing children in their mothers womb...you are still murdering a baby! He delt with the corporate evil with passion and forceful truth...not milk toast love as you would suggest I handle my passion against abortion and Trump's answer to it.
As a society, we need to tell the truth about abortion in technicolor. However, let me end with this...as evil as abortion is...the good news is that a mother's choosing to have an abortion is not looked upon by God as any worse than any other sin a person makes on any given day. The compassion of Christ comes in the wonderful truth that Jesus died and rose from the dead to free us from our sin (any and all sin) and all women can have the instant cleansing of Jesus from any sin including abortion.
Murder is the unlawful killing of a Natural Person. A natural person being someone that was Born Naturally. Since the time of Aristotle to the founding of this nation a fetus wasn't believed to be infused with a soul until the quickening. (4th month) Even then it wasn't until the 1800's that abortion laws were being written and they were to protect the woman from a botched abortion in which she died, not the fetus.
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." 1 Samuel 15:3
I say let Amalek smite themselves. They may be citizens but they are not my tribe or your tribe.
I will also point out that since before the Biblical flood Born Naturally children were sacrificed to Molech. Using your logic, because it's been done that way for most of history, it's ok? The word "Fetus" is used by the abortion industry and the medical establishment in order to take the humanity away from the child. A baby just becomes a lump of cells in the eyes of the unthinking public.
You can call the baby a fetus, or determine in your own mind that it has no rights and isn't part of humanity because it has not been born naturally, but this is just semantics...anyone whose seen the photos of an abortion or watched a baby in a sonagram knows it's a living human being...not some fetus waiting for it's humanity to be conferred upon "IT" when it is out of the womb. That whole argument is just either based on pure evil or pure ignorance!
Even state laws show the hypocrisy in this Natural Person argument when it determines it's ok for a doctor to murder the baby in the womb by chopping it up without any anesthesia, but if you cause and a vehicle accident that causes the death of the mother and her so called "fetus," you are charge with 2 counts of involuntary manslaughter. So, it's a person when the mother wants to keep it and it's not a person if she doesn't?
Here's what God says on the subject...
Psalm 139:13-16 ~ For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
Jeremiah 1:5 ~ "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
"Using your logic"
No, you're not using my logic.
I gave you legal definitions and some history. You gave me distortions and emotional appeals.
If you want to play these games where we imply what the other believes then let's play. We receive birth certificates, not conception certificates. If you want to place abortion on the same level as murder you have to inspect women monthly and issue conception certificates. When a miscarriage happens it will have to be investigated as a possible murder. That's your position, is it not? It should be. How else are you going to enforce such murder laws? Especially in the age of the internet and international travel? Do you enjoy invading people's privacy?
Keep in mind miscarriages are common and are often unnoticed. They also exceed the number of medically induced abortions...
This makes it difficult for Lady G to undermine Trumps election again with a national abortion ban bill.
Our son turns 9 years old today. It took 7 long years of infertility treatment culminating in a successful ivf pregnancy. It was a long road and we feel extremely blessed to have him in our lives now.
Trump Says His Position On Abortion Is Whichever One Will Get Him Elected
https://babylonbee.com/news/trump-says-his-position-on-abortion-is-whichever-one-will-get-him-elected
Why is he so dark!
Amen! very sad to see...