The Bible doesn’t just frown on the idea of making images of Jesus, it puts it in the same category as making images of golden cows and frog-headed gods. The Second Commandment lays it out clearly: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above…” (Exodus 20:4). Now, last time I checked, Jesus, being the Son of God, is very much “in heaven above.”
The problem isn’t that artists are bad at their craft. The problem is theological. The moment you try to capture the infinite Word made flesh with paint and clay, you start preaching a silent but misleading sermon. You end up with a Jesus who looks either like a shampoo model from Nazareth or a forlorn hippie with good lighting, neither of which quite fits the “King of Kings” profile.
So, the prohibition isn’t God being a cosmic killjoy for art students. It’s God protecting us from trading the living Christ for a mascot of our own making. In short: don’t make a Jesus you can hang on a wall, because He’s the sort of King who doesn’t fit in a frame.
What a comment... I couldn't agree more, and you worded it so well! It's sad to think that some want to look to a material thing when He is always accessible in the spirit
Very surprised to read this & vehemently disagree. Would strongly consider you to reconsider.
What the 2nd Commandment says;
Bible reference - Exodus 20:4-6: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
That's the key part that many here seem to be glossing over:
you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
If you really feel that a mere statue of Jesus is a false idol, then you must also believe a cross is; all icons, even an entire church, etc. Because they all are also "likenesses of anything that is in heaven"
What I believe this commandment ACTUALLY means - and what makes logical sense; is this;
Historically, an "idol" was a statue or object believed to embody a god's presence and power. In ancient cultures, worshipers often bowed, prayed, or made offerings to these physical objects, treating them as if they themselves were gods.
So if people came & worshipped the statue - or an icon or whatever - as if that thing itself had power, was like Jesus, WAS Jesus; etc**; THAT is a violation of the 2nd Commandment. THAT is a false idol. You are not worshipping God / Jesus; you are worshipping the physical trinket / image that is in front of you, just like if you were to literally worship a celebrity or any other human.
Or if you went up to Jonathan Roumi & worshipped him as if he himself actually was Jesus; THAT would certainly be inappropriate & a violation of the Commandment. Jon is merely Jon; even if he claimed to be Jesus (he has never done to my knowledge; he's a strong believer) and you worshipped Jon, THAT would also be a false idol and violation of the commandment.
Icons, Crosses, Statues, paintings; all they are, are symbols and physical items to help us remember. To always remind us and keep God top of mind. Nobody claiming to be an acutal Christian believes that a mere statue of Jesus, an icon; a painting; that any of that has actual Heavenly significance, any powers, nor are the items themselves deserving of any worship directed AT THE THING.
Or, better example;
The Shroud of Turin.
That is an actual, real relic that covered Jesus' body in the tomb. That cloth actually touched His Body. I would be moved beyond belief if I ever saw it, I would long to stay with it for as long as I could, I would study it very closely, but I would not WORSHIP the Shroud. I know the Shroud itself is not Jesus, nor does it have any real power. It's a mere THING.
THAT is the distinction & what I think you + others have gotten wildly incorrect.
I mean this with love & respectfully as a fellow Christian, but I do think you are quite incorrect.
You mixed up what it means to have mere reminders of God, vs worshipping the reminders themselves, directly.
Guess who doesn't mind an IMAGE being made of himself:
Rev.13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to >>>make an image <<<to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
No true believers will worship the beast. image or take his 'mark':
Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 14:9
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Right, but you are missing the point; the actual point of the overarching discussion is; is it a violation of the 2nd Commandment to place a statue of Jesus on the WH Lawn. Or by logical extension; anywhere.
Some here seem to wildly believe that they not only disagree with placing a statue of Jesus on the WH lawn, but that creating a statue of Him is in fact a serious violation of Scripture; specifically the 2nd Commandment.
My whole point is; in the phrase you quoted;
hat the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
I'll go out on a limb & reason that if you will be killed if you do NOT worship this image of the beast, that means the beast & his minions want you to worship the image of the beast...... following?
You then extrapolate that to mean; well, if the beast wants us to create iamges of him and worship them, then obviously statues of Jesus are also graven images and thus heretical / against the 2nd Commandment.
I follow what you're saying, that being said, Images are an important theme in history:
Dan.2:31 “You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome.
Dan.3:3 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was sixty cubits and its width six cubits. He set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.
4 Then a herald cried aloud: “To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, 5 that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; 6 and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”
Antiochus IV Epiphanes 215 bc—died 164,
Seleucid king (King of the North as will be the future antichrist)
In the Temple an altar to Zeus Olympios was erected, and sacrifices were to be made at the feet of an idol in the image of the King.
Edict to Erect Imperial Statue in Temple [39 AD]
Now Gaius (Caligula) bore a grudge for being ignored only by the Jews in this respect [i.e., honoring him as divine]. So he sent his legate, Petronius, to Syria to take the rule over from Vitellius and ordered him to lead a large force into Judea. If they received him willingly, he was to place a statue of (Caligula) in the temple of God. But if they treated him with arrogance, he still was to do this after mastering them in battle --- Josephus, Antiquities 18.261
Caligula's Death Averts War [41 AD]
Indeed, the Jews had given the appearance of rising up in revolt; (but) after the news of (Caligula's) murder there was no need for compliance (with his order). (Yet) fear remained that some emperor would command the same thing. --- Tacitus, Annals 12.343
FINAL ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
Matt.24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
2Thess. 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Rev.13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev.19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Thanks for posting all this. I truly want to have a polite & respectful conversation, so of course my comments are with that in mind.
That said; what are these verses supposed to mean?
You can find a Bible verse to support literally just about ANY idea you might have; the left does it to us all the time. (Again; respectfully)
I appreciate you posting these verses, but - to my mind and from my perspective - these just reinforce my stance, which is that these are all examples of a whole lot of people creating graven images and forcing others to worship them, and not worshipping God / Jesus himself.
This sounds like people - humans - playing God / acting like God, and not actually following his will and way.
All these verses; how do they support your stance that having a mere statue of Jesus is a violation of the Second Commandment?
Born Again Christian #2 here....you miss understood the GRAVEN IMAGE...which is why you can't see God Currently although He stands before you. You had an idea in your head of what He looks like, and the process in which He would return.
However He fulfills EVERYTHING and you can't see him standing in front of you.
Who BROKE the Commandment....YOU DID
The IMAGE IS IN YOUR MIND and you totally missed the understanding of it
God was the Father, not Joseph. His first mistake. And I believe that he would have stood out rather than blend in. Tends to be God’s MO. I am inclined to go with Akiane Kramarik‘s depiction. She was not given that gift for no reason. And funny, it was more aligned with the picture that my Pastor had hanging in church when I was a teenager.
I think that, if you asked Jesus, he wouldn't want a statue to himself on the White House lawn.
Please notice that Jesus didn't make any statues of himself when he was alive. Jesus was a carpenter, and so were his family. Having a statue carved would have been simple if he wanted one. He didn't.
Jesus wouldn't have minded having the 10 commandments on the front lawn of White House. He always supported having public reminders like that.
Agreed, or what He said about the two greatest commandments:
Jesus said, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets".
Guess who doesn't mind an IMAGE being made of himself:
Rev.13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to >>>make an image <<<to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Agreed. I'm truly stunned by the number of people here who would oppose it.
Also;
Did you know that the only reason the Founders sought any sort of "separation of church & state" was NOT because they wanted to keep religion out of the government / country, but because each of the original 13 colonies / states already had their own state-sponsored official religion.
The Calvinists didn't want protestantism imposed on them by the feds, the Quakers didn't want Calvinism imposed on them, etc. They (generally) already lived in a state which already had an official state religion.
Seventy-five years a Christian, not born again, the first time took, and I believe that this is entirely inappropriate. I don’t want to hear politics preached from the pulpit, I want to hear the word of God and how to live a more Christ-like life. By the same token, I don’t want religion preached by government. The former is annoying and the latter is illegal.
Also, is there any reputable source for this?
Agree. I'm Christian and keep my faith between me and God. G0v already oversteps enough. Anons can be atheists if they desire. Think of what "statue" Barry would've erected given the opportunity.
The phrase “separation between church and state” was reintroduced by former Klansman Hugo Black, historically one of our most liberal Supreme Court judges.
I thought that part was interesting.
The original intent was to protect the church from intrusion by the state. Not the other way around. When laid out in those terms, you can see why Leftists were desperate to change its meaning, since The State is their god.
I am a Christian, and the whole point is people have to choose Christ. I don't think the federal government should be making that choice for anyone. Like the Holman Hunt picture where Christ is knocking but the handle is on the other side of the door. I am not really one to quote scripture, but the reference is intrepeted to be to Revelation 3:20: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him".
I'll also add that - purely IN THEORY - I like the idea of Christian Nationalism; but in REALITY, I too am extremely wary of getting govt involved with religion - to an extent.
I definitely do not want govt doing things like forcing people to go to church, etc., but should our gov declare Christianity the official religion of the the US & finally and completely affirm that we are, in fact, a Christian nation?
Absolutely.
Just like we should declare English our country's official language.
But I definitely don't want gov getting involved in religion - any religion - beyond declaring it the official US Religion and protecting it. I'd definitely be OK with the gov putting up Christian imagery & statues in public places, with taxpayer funds, but again; provided the same is NOT afforded to other religions. I'd want the fed gov to "unfairly" protect & prioritize Christianity.
NO; we are NOT a "melting pot"; NO; our diversity is NOT our strength; and NO; not all religions are equal.
They also cannot all be true. I believe the overwhelming majority of actual, real scientific, historical, archaeological and other data fully & completely support Christianity as being completely true, but that's a whole other ball of wax.....
I am not a firm believer in separation of church and state. That is a communist idea. I am a firm believer that the government should not tell us what church too follow. Which is what our founding fathers believed.
We are at the state we are now because of the lie that is called the separation of church and state. Which means there should be no moral absolute. Morals should flow with the times.
We already do. They just happen to worship Satan. I agree there should be no state religion. But you run into problems when you say there is no God. Because then the state is God. There has to be a higher authority that our rights come from.
No offense, and truly I say this respectfully; but you fundamentally misunderstand our system of government.
John Adams: 'Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'
And did you know the reason that the Founding Fathers pushed for the 1st Amendment's religious aspect is because the original 13 colonies had official state churches, and they didn't want one sect being imposed by the new fed gov, over another.
The protestants didn't want anglicanism forced on them, because they already lived in a state with an official Anglican religion.
The Congretaionalists didn't want another religion imposed upon them by the fed; they lived in a state whose official religion was already Congregationalism.
"Separation of church & state" is not only a complete & total myth; it has directly & materially led to the downfall & decay of our society.
I think this is fine, there's a difference between Jesus, and the Christian 'religion'...
plenty of other statues of famous people in Washington DC🥸
and Jesus had A lot of good ideas!✨
"I then promised you that, one day or other, I would give you my views of it. they are the result of a life of enquiry & reflection, and very different from that Anti-Christian system, imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. to the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, & believing he never claimed any other." Thomas Jefferson-his letter to Benjamin Rush
Yeah I think this fine too. I think it’s pretty fucking awesome actually.
We’re in the biggest ideological war in human history against literal fucking satanists who bombard every man woman and child on the planet with the 7 deadly temptations 24/7, but sure let’s not put up a statue of Jesus in arguably the most important spot on earth, because “actually, Jesus wouldn’t want this…” and “I don’t wanna live in a theocracy” and “this is idolatry…” and whatever other stupid bullshit all the big brains in the comments above have been saying.
NO IDOLATRY! Let’s not put up a statue because people are so dumb they’ll believe they’re worshipping the literal statue instead of what the statue represents.
Nah, let’s continue to have ZERO fucking visibility for the most important person in human history at a time when a shit ton of people, GenZ kids included, are crying out for God and heading back to churches.
No, we should just keep quietly losing while sin and vice continue to corrupt our society like cancer. We should show everyone how awesome and secular we are while our countries continue to fill up with Muslims who tell us openly that Sharia law is coming as soon as their numbers one day inevitably tick higher than ours.
Because apparently that’s what the dead sea scrolls say, that’s what Jesus would do. You don’t need to ask the wristband anymore.
They’re all gonna downvote the fuck out of this comment and probably throw a few more obscure bible quotes at me (to show how cleverly clever they are), but my mind ain’t changing. We absolutely SHOULD have a statue of Christ there. We should have them fucking everywhere.
If you’re an atheist or a secularist who finds the idea of living in a religious state distasteful, I hope for your sake that you’re old and near death. Because the bad news is we WILL be living under some form of religious state in just a few decades from now, given the way demographics are going. I just happen to think a Christian religious state is going to be far better for my children and grandchildren than the alternative.
The hour is late, we should be fighting back and worshipping the lord openly and as loudly and as hard as we fucking can. We should be out there reversing the last 50 years of evil that’s been allowed to metastasize, everywhere we can as much as we can. We should be reaching the hearts and minds of all those wayward souls, especially those who are lost and depressed and crying out for God. Mankind has probably never needed him more than right now at this moment in history.
yes, but why wouldn't I specifically read the Words/Sayings of Jesus?
especially if they're the referred to as the 'Q-Source'??
why wouldn't I read something recommended by Thomas Jefferson?
this Is a Q forum...🤔
"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."
President Kennedy, Remarks honoring Nobel Prize winners of the Western Hemisphere, April 29, 1962
Atheist here. I have my own thoughts as to what Jesus is, but for the sake of argument let's say that Jesus was a flesh and blood human; the Son of God.
Do you really think that Jesus would want a statue of himself on the White House grounds? To what end? Was Jesus so weak that He needs your adulation?
How about a statue that encompasses some of his His teachings that most of us can agree are universal unless we are evil?
Love your Neighbor
Service and Humility
Compassion and Mercy
Forgiveness
Care for the Poor
Integrity
Put something up like that and DARE the Demoncrats to oppose it.
Frankly. Retaining_H2O and I agree with you, and Tellstruth had a good idea about the Beatitudes as well. My suggestion was to have the two greatest commands as chosen by Jesus written out....
You misunderstand who Jesus is. I can't blame you because so many churches seem to push the lie.
God is Love. Jesus is His son. Think that through, We are called to worship agape Love. Not a love that gives us something in return. But a Love that is unconditional and freely given.
Sin is a replacement for seeking agape Love. Seeking agape Love leads to life. Sin leads to death. Sin is anything that is not agape Love
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
I'd respectfully urge you to read up more & reconsider your understanding of the entire concept of "separation of church & state."
I posted this above, but definitely bears repeating here:
John Adams: 'Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'
And did you know the reason that the Founding Fathers pushed for the 1st Amendment's religious aspect is because the original 13 colonies had official state churches, and they didn't want one sect being imposed by the new fed gov, over another.
The protestants didn't want anglicanism forced on them, because they already lived in a state with an official Anglican religion. The Congretaionalists didn't want another religion imposed upon them by the fed; they lived in a state whose official religion was already Congregationalism.
Separation of church & state" is not only a complete & total myth; it has directly & materially led to the downfall & decay of our society.
John Adams opinion is dandy but the US Constitution is the final written embodiment of what the founding fathers and lawmakers of that era agreed upon. We are bound by what is written to this day. I would suggest reading the document itself.
As a Christian married to a Jew I do not want a statute to him on our WH. I still believe the Federal Government should not push one religion over another.
2 Corinthians 6:14 KJV
[14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
ThanQ for that link. And it is difficult. I became born again in my early 60's. Just wish I had done it sooner
I am currently in two bible studies (one women's group in my community and one women's group in my church). So I have plenty of prayer warriors on my side.
My husband had a health scare one day last year and I did finally give him the low down on his need to become one with Christ. I told him what he needed to do to be one of His children. He got very quiet. I know it did affect him. He knows he needs saving to go to Heaven to atone for all his sins and accept Christ as his Savior.
But so far as I know he has not taken me up. on it.
Matt Wallace is a grifter. Most of what he posts is fiction. He has capitalized on the fact that people constantly mistake his posts as from the much more well-known MATT WALSH.
If President Trump wants to put one up for his comfort, I don't have a problem with that. If the next president wishes to remove it, I don't have a problem with that either.
No. Orthodoxy does not believe in statues, because in the past often representations of demonic gods were created and then worshipped. We use icons when we pray, but we don't worship them. We see them as windows to those represented, who hear us and help us when we pray. So, don't need a statue. Also, this would be decried as the establishment of a particular religion. It's just not needed.
I'm a Born Again Christian, but if you research Scripture, the statue would be considered a Graven Image!
I agree.
The Bible doesn’t just frown on the idea of making images of Jesus, it puts it in the same category as making images of golden cows and frog-headed gods. The Second Commandment lays it out clearly: “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above…” (Exodus 20:4). Now, last time I checked, Jesus, being the Son of God, is very much “in heaven above.”
The problem isn’t that artists are bad at their craft. The problem is theological. The moment you try to capture the infinite Word made flesh with paint and clay, you start preaching a silent but misleading sermon. You end up with a Jesus who looks either like a shampoo model from Nazareth or a forlorn hippie with good lighting, neither of which quite fits the “King of Kings” profile.
So, the prohibition isn’t God being a cosmic killjoy for art students. It’s God protecting us from trading the living Christ for a mascot of our own making. In short: don’t make a Jesus you can hang on a wall, because He’s the sort of King who doesn’t fit in a frame.
I agree, JESUS dwells within us!
Very well said.
Well said.
What a comment... I couldn't agree more, and you worded it so well! It's sad to think that some want to look to a material thing when He is always accessible in the spirit
Then you better destroy any pictures of Jesus and any crosses that you own..
I don't own any lol!
You're comment reads like Chatgpt wrote it.
"Its not just X, it's Y" is the biggest giveaway.
All your missing is em dashes...
Let me guess... You went to public school and you don't read or write for pleasure.
How'd I do?
Public school, yes. No college. I read and write for pleasure, both fiction and non fiction, and I'm a small business owner.
You still sounded like chatgpt, and you getting offended like a chick proved it probably was chatgpt, hahaha!
The fact that you got "offended" out of what what clearly flippant & dismissive speaks volumes.
I write for the same reason a dog barks... It's my nature.
Because you can't help what random noises come out of your mouth?
I didn't get offended, you did based on your angry reaction. The rest of your comment made no sense.
Very surprised to read this & vehemently disagree. Would strongly consider you to reconsider.
What the 2nd Commandment says;
That's the key part that many here seem to be glossing over: you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
If you really feel that a mere statue of Jesus is a false idol, then you must also believe a cross is; all icons, even an entire church, etc. Because they all are also "likenesses of anything that is in heaven"
What I believe this commandment ACTUALLY means - and what makes logical sense; is this;
Historically, an "idol" was a statue or object believed to embody a god's presence and power. In ancient cultures, worshipers often bowed, prayed, or made offerings to these physical objects, treating them as if they themselves were gods.
So if people came & worshipped the statue - or an icon or whatever - as if that thing itself had power, was like Jesus, WAS Jesus; etc**; THAT is a violation of the 2nd Commandment. THAT is a false idol. You are not worshipping God / Jesus; you are worshipping the physical trinket / image that is in front of you, just like if you were to literally worship a celebrity or any other human.
Or if you went up to Jonathan Roumi & worshipped him as if he himself actually was Jesus; THAT would certainly be inappropriate & a violation of the Commandment. Jon is merely Jon; even if he claimed to be Jesus (he has never done to my knowledge; he's a strong believer) and you worshipped Jon, THAT would also be a false idol and violation of the commandment.
Icons, Crosses, Statues, paintings; all they are, are symbols and physical items to help us remember. To always remind us and keep God top of mind. Nobody claiming to be an acutal Christian believes that a mere statue of Jesus, an icon; a painting; that any of that has actual Heavenly significance, any powers, nor are the items themselves deserving of any worship directed AT THE THING.
Or, better example; The Shroud of Turin.
That is an actual, real relic that covered Jesus' body in the tomb. That cloth actually touched His Body. I would be moved beyond belief if I ever saw it, I would long to stay with it for as long as I could, I would study it very closely, but I would not WORSHIP the Shroud. I know the Shroud itself is not Jesus, nor does it have any real power. It's a mere THING.
THAT is the distinction & what I think you + others have gotten wildly incorrect.
I mean this with love & respectfully as a fellow Christian, but I do think you are quite incorrect.
You mixed up what it means to have mere reminders of God, vs worshipping the reminders themselves, directly.
JMHO.
I've never said this, as typically we're all on the same page here on this forum, but holy cow.
I'm blown away to read some of the responses here...... truly awe-struck.
And not in a good way.
Guess who doesn't mind an IMAGE being made of himself:
Rev.13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to >>>make an image <<<to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Completely different things.
In your example, the purpose of the image of the beast is for people to worship it as though it itself was a god, powerful, etc.
No real Christian worships statues, icons, crosses, as if they themselves are Jesus
If you really believe what you are saying, then we must also destroy all churches, crosses, paintings of Jesus, etc.
No true believers will worship the beast. image or take his 'mark':
Revelation 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Right, but you are missing the point; the actual point of the overarching discussion is; is it a violation of the 2nd Commandment to place a statue of Jesus on the WH Lawn. Or by logical extension; anywhere.
Some here seem to wildly believe that they not only disagree with placing a statue of Jesus on the WH lawn, but that creating a statue of Him is in fact a serious violation of Scripture; specifically the 2nd Commandment.
My whole point is; in the phrase you quoted;
I'll go out on a limb & reason that if you will be killed if you do NOT worship this image of the beast, that means the beast & his minions want you to worship the image of the beast...... following?
You then extrapolate that to mean; well, if the beast wants us to create iamges of him and worship them, then obviously statues of Jesus are also graven images and thus heretical / against the 2nd Commandment.
Are you following?
I follow what you're saying, that being said, Images are an important theme in history:
Dan.2:31 “You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome.
Dan.3:3 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was sixty cubits and its width six cubits. He set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. 4 Then a herald cried aloud: “To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, 5 that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; 6 and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”
Antiochus IV Epiphanes 215 bc—died 164, Seleucid king (King of the North as will be the future antichrist)
In the Temple an altar to Zeus Olympios was erected, and sacrifices were to be made at the feet of an idol in the image of the King.
Edict to Erect Imperial Statue in Temple [39 AD]
Now Gaius (Caligula) bore a grudge for being ignored only by the Jews in this respect [i.e., honoring him as divine]. So he sent his legate, Petronius, to Syria to take the rule over from Vitellius and ordered him to lead a large force into Judea. If they received him willingly, he was to place a statue of (Caligula) in the temple of God. But if they treated him with arrogance, he still was to do this after mastering them in battle --- Josephus, Antiquities 18.261
Caligula's Death Averts War [41 AD]
Indeed, the Jews had given the appearance of rising up in revolt; (but) after the news of (Caligula's) murder there was no need for compliance (with his order). (Yet) fear remained that some emperor would command the same thing. --- Tacitus, Annals 12.343
FINAL ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION
Matt.24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
2Thess. 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Rev.13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev.19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Thanks for posting all this. I truly want to have a polite & respectful conversation, so of course my comments are with that in mind.
That said; what are these verses supposed to mean? You can find a Bible verse to support literally just about ANY idea you might have; the left does it to us all the time. (Again; respectfully)
I appreciate you posting these verses, but - to my mind and from my perspective - these just reinforce my stance, which is that these are all examples of a whole lot of people creating graven images and forcing others to worship them, and not worshipping God / Jesus himself.
This sounds like people - humans - playing God / acting like God, and not actually following his will and way.
All these verses; how do they support your stance that having a mere statue of Jesus is a violation of the Second Commandment?
Did you take the JAB?
By the way Revelation 14:9 the MARK is THOUGHTS & ACTIONS---- HEAD-HAND
I am the Book of Life...a Written epistle of Christ in the Flesh, with out the Mark of the BEAST INSIDE ME
Born Again Christian #2 here....you miss understood the GRAVEN IMAGE...which is why you can't see God Currently although He stands before you. You had an idea in your head of what He looks like, and the process in which He would return.
However He fulfills EVERYTHING and you can't see him standing in front of you.
Who BROKE the Commandment....YOU DID
The IMAGE IS IN YOUR MIND and you totally missed the understanding of it
Please elaborate because to be honest, I got nothing out of your comment after reading it twice...
Are you saying we OUGHT to make statues?
It's absolutely wild that people are downvoting you, and upvoting & believing that a statue of Jesus is some violation of the 2nd Commandment.
Here's my longer comment on this topic;
https://greatawakening.win/p/1ARJYGvM2e/x/c/4eWdejnBMsm
Liberal heads exploding in 3,2,1….
https://simplecapacity.com/2017/05/forensic-scientists-reveal-the-real-face-of-jesus-christ/
God was the Father, not Joseph. His first mistake. And I believe that he would have stood out rather than blend in. Tends to be God’s MO. I am inclined to go with Akiane Kramarik‘s depiction. She was not given that gift for no reason. And funny, it was more aligned with the picture that my Pastor had hanging in church when I was a teenager.
Jesus 5'1? I have a hard time with that....maybe I shouldn't have, but I do....
Nah.
There are a couple ai-generated images that are pretty mind-blowing.
Who knows (or cares) how accurate they are, but it's amazing how ai can reconstruct (or attempt to) based on something iike the Shroud of Turin. 🤯🤯🙏🙏
I think that, if you asked Jesus, he wouldn't want a statue to himself on the White House lawn.
Please notice that Jesus didn't make any statues of himself when he was alive. Jesus was a carpenter, and so were his family. Having a statue carved would have been simple if he wanted one. He didn't.
Jesus wouldn't have minded having the 10 commandments on the front lawn of White House. He always supported having public reminders like that.
That’s a good suggestion. How do we get it to President Trump.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
Agreed, or what He said about the two greatest commandments:
https://www.esv.org/Matthew+22:34%E2%80%9340;Mark+12:28%E2%80%9334;Luke+10:25%E2%80%9328/
Wouldn't it be nice if all people would obey the two greatest commandments! Lot easier to follow than the Ten Commandments.
(one could say the Two are a summary of the Ten....
Exactly!
Guess who doesn't mind an IMAGE being made of himself:
Rev.13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to >>>make an image <<<to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
Honest question;
What about a cross?
What about an entire church?
What about a painting of Jesus?
I really like that idea instead of the proposed statue. The Law would be a great thing to have at our government buildings
Agreed. I'm truly stunned by the number of people here who would oppose it.
Also;
Did you know that the only reason the Founders sought any sort of "separation of church & state" was NOT because they wanted to keep religion out of the government / country, but because each of the original 13 colonies / states already had their own state-sponsored official religion.
The Calvinists didn't want protestantism imposed on them by the feds, the Quakers didn't want Calvinism imposed on them, etc. They (generally) already lived in a state which already had an official state religion.
THAT is why....!!!!!
Yes, I have learned that! Really makes you wonder why the "separation of church & state" lie was peddled and by who...
Oh I have my ideas, that's for sure.....
Haha oh yeah when I say "I wonder why" what I'm actually saying if "I know exactly why" 😂
Yep, I gotcha... I was also being rhetorical.....😇😁🙌
Seventy-five years a Christian, not born again, the first time took, and I believe that this is entirely inappropriate. I don’t want to hear politics preached from the pulpit, I want to hear the word of God and how to live a more Christ-like life. By the same token, I don’t want religion preached by government. The former is annoying and the latter is illegal.
Also, is there any reputable source for this?
Odd stance you have. Perhaps change churches. Any church.not preaching the new birth and the blood is amiss.
John 3:3 KJV [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.3.3.KJV
I was born again when I was baptized a Christian.
Agree. I'm Christian and keep my faith between me and God. G0v already oversteps enough. Anons can be atheists if they desire. Think of what "statue" Barry would've erected given the opportunity.
'Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'
No. I'm still a firm believer in separation of church and state. I am not a Christian and have never pretended to be.
Too bad the original intent behind the separation of church and state has been so bastardized.
An interesting read
I thought that part was interesting.
The original intent was to protect the church from intrusion by the state. Not the other way around. When laid out in those terms, you can see why Leftists were desperate to change its meaning, since The State is their god.
I believe it should go both ways.
Well, the way we've been doing it hasn't turned out to be all that great.
Secularism has brought us to the gates of hell.
I am a Christian, and the whole point is people have to choose Christ. I don't think the federal government should be making that choice for anyone. Like the Holman Hunt picture where Christ is knocking but the handle is on the other side of the door. I am not really one to quote scripture, but the reference is intrepeted to be to Revelation 3:20: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him".
That's my view anyhoo.
I'll also add that - purely IN THEORY - I like the idea of Christian Nationalism; but in REALITY, I too am extremely wary of getting govt involved with religion - to an extent.
I definitely do not want govt doing things like forcing people to go to church, etc., but should our gov declare Christianity the official religion of the the US & finally and completely affirm that we are, in fact, a Christian nation?
Absolutely.
Just like we should declare English our country's official language.
But I definitely don't want gov getting involved in religion - any religion - beyond declaring it the official US Religion and protecting it. I'd definitely be OK with the gov putting up Christian imagery & statues in public places, with taxpayer funds, but again; provided the same is NOT afforded to other religions. I'd want the fed gov to "unfairly" protect & prioritize Christianity.
NO; we are NOT a "melting pot"; NO; our diversity is NOT our strength; and NO; not all religions are equal.
They also cannot all be true. I believe the overwhelming majority of actual, real scientific, historical, archaeological and other data fully & completely support Christianity as being completely true, but that's a whole other ball of wax.....
Don't like it? Don't come here.
I am not a firm believer in separation of church and state. That is a communist idea. I am a firm believer that the government should not tell us what church too follow. Which is what our founding fathers believed. We are at the state we are now because of the lie that is called the separation of church and state. Which means there should be no moral absolute. Morals should flow with the times.
No. I refuse to live in a theocracy. That's just as bad as living under a monarchy.
We already do. They just happen to worship Satan. I agree there should be no state religion. But you run into problems when you say there is no God. Because then the state is God. There has to be a higher authority that our rights come from.
No offense, and truly I say this respectfully; but you fundamentally misunderstand our system of government.
John Adams: 'Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'
And did you know the reason that the Founding Fathers pushed for the 1st Amendment's religious aspect is because the original 13 colonies had official state churches, and they didn't want one sect being imposed by the new fed gov, over another.
The protestants didn't want anglicanism forced on them, because they already lived in a state with an official Anglican religion. The Congretaionalists didn't want another religion imposed upon them by the fed; they lived in a state whose official religion was already Congregationalism.
"Separation of church & state" is not only a complete & total myth; it has directly & materially led to the downfall & decay of our society.
Agree. Don't want to see any religion governing. Especially the angry and subversive ones.
.....which religions do you consider angry & subversive...?
The ones that strive to keep the world under their financial control or the ones who promise virgins to kamikaze fighters. Take your pick.
Roger that, hear u loud & clear.... 🫡🙏
I think this is fine, there's a difference between Jesus, and the Christian 'religion'...
plenty of other statues of famous people in Washington DC🥸
and Jesus had A lot of good ideas!✨
"I then promised you that, one day or other, I would give you my views of it. they are the result of a life of enquiry & reflection, and very different from that Anti-Christian system, imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. to the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, & believing he never claimed any other." Thomas Jefferson-his letter to Benjamin Rush
https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-40-02-0178-0001#TSJN-01-40-02-0178-0001-fn-0005
The Jefferson Bible- The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth;
https://americanhistory.si.edu/JeffersonBible/the-book/#1
The Q-Source...(The common material between Matthew and Luke/Sayings of Jesus)
https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/q-contents.html
Yeah I think this fine too. I think it’s pretty fucking awesome actually.
We’re in the biggest ideological war in human history against literal fucking satanists who bombard every man woman and child on the planet with the 7 deadly temptations 24/7, but sure let’s not put up a statue of Jesus in arguably the most important spot on earth, because “actually, Jesus wouldn’t want this…” and “I don’t wanna live in a theocracy” and “this is idolatry…” and whatever other stupid bullshit all the big brains in the comments above have been saying.
NO IDOLATRY! Let’s not put up a statue because people are so dumb they’ll believe they’re worshipping the literal statue instead of what the statue represents.
Nah, let’s continue to have ZERO fucking visibility for the most important person in human history at a time when a shit ton of people, GenZ kids included, are crying out for God and heading back to churches.
No, we should just keep quietly losing while sin and vice continue to corrupt our society like cancer. We should show everyone how awesome and secular we are while our countries continue to fill up with Muslims who tell us openly that Sharia law is coming as soon as their numbers one day inevitably tick higher than ours.
Because apparently that’s what the dead sea scrolls say, that’s what Jesus would do. You don’t need to ask the wristband anymore.
They’re all gonna downvote the fuck out of this comment and probably throw a few more obscure bible quotes at me (to show how cleverly clever they are), but my mind ain’t changing. We absolutely SHOULD have a statue of Christ there. We should have them fucking everywhere.
If you’re an atheist or a secularist who finds the idea of living in a religious state distasteful, I hope for your sake that you’re old and near death. Because the bad news is we WILL be living under some form of religious state in just a few decades from now, given the way demographics are going. I just happen to think a Christian religious state is going to be far better for my children and grandchildren than the alternative.
The hour is late, we should be fighting back and worshipping the lord openly and as loudly and as hard as we fucking can. We should be out there reversing the last 50 years of evil that’s been allowed to metastasize, everywhere we can as much as we can. We should be reaching the hearts and minds of all those wayward souls, especially those who are lost and depressed and crying out for God. Mankind has probably never needed him more than right now at this moment in history.
I think THAT is what Jesus would do.
Get a real Bible, fren.
yes, but why wouldn't I specifically read the Words/Sayings of Jesus?
especially if they're the referred to as the 'Q-Source'??
why wouldn't I read something recommended by Thomas Jefferson?
this Is a Q forum...🤔
"I think this is the most extraordinary collection of talent, of human knowledge, that has ever been gathered together at the White House, with the possible exception of when Thomas Jefferson dined alone."
President Kennedy, Remarks honoring Nobel Prize winners of the Western Hemisphere, April 29, 1962
I dunno.
They should have Jesus giving a thumbs up.
Except on the years dems are in charge and it changes to a middle finger.
Wearing a MAGA hat 😆
u/#noolib
Lol, Buddy Jesus🐸
Atheist here. I have my own thoughts as to what Jesus is, but for the sake of argument let's say that Jesus was a flesh and blood human; the Son of God.
Do you really think that Jesus would want a statue of himself on the White House grounds? To what end? Was Jesus so weak that He needs your adulation?
How about a statue that encompasses some of his His teachings that most of us can agree are universal unless we are evil?
Love your Neighbor
Service and Humility
Compassion and Mercy
Forgiveness
Care for the Poor
Integrity
Put something up like that and DARE the Demoncrats to oppose it.
Frankly. Retaining_H2O and I agree with you, and Tellstruth had a good idea about the Beatitudes as well. My suggestion was to have the two greatest commands as chosen by Jesus written out....
https://www.esv.org/Matthew+22:34%E2%80%9340;Mark+12:28%E2%80%9334;Luke+10:25%E2%80%9328/
You misunderstand who Jesus is. I can't blame you because so many churches seem to push the lie. God is Love. Jesus is His son. Think that through, We are called to worship agape Love. Not a love that gives us something in return. But a Love that is unconditional and freely given. Sin is a replacement for seeking agape Love. Seeking agape Love leads to life. Sin leads to death. Sin is anything that is not agape Love
Only God can qualify as an ATHEIST:
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
Let’s do this.
Malachi 4:2
Jesus is the personification of the Sun.
Solar Mythology and the Jesus Story
https://www.solarmythology.com/
Stop thinking you know ANYTHING about Jesus, because you don’t.
🙏👌
Lets fix the country, not impose religion. This just adds division and animosity. Stop it!
Jesus is not a false god, what are you talking about?
Worship in spirit and truth through actions and words not images and statues.
I understand the idea but I feel that it's improper.
I love the concept but it’s impractical due to separation church and state.
I'd respectfully urge you to read up more & reconsider your understanding of the entire concept of "separation of church & state."
I posted this above, but definitely bears repeating here:
John Adams: 'Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.'
And did you know the reason that the Founding Fathers pushed for the 1st Amendment's religious aspect is because the original 13 colonies had official state churches, and they didn't want one sect being imposed by the new fed gov, over another.
The protestants didn't want anglicanism forced on them, because they already lived in a state with an official Anglican religion. The Congretaionalists didn't want another religion imposed upon them by the fed; they lived in a state whose official religion was already Congregationalism.
Separation of church & state" is not only a complete & total myth; it has directly & materially led to the downfall & decay of our society.
John Adams opinion is dandy but the US Constitution is the final written embodiment of what the founding fathers and lawmakers of that era agreed upon. We are bound by what is written to this day. I would suggest reading the document itself.
Wanna see Christ. Look at a Christian who walks with God.
As a Christian married to a Jew I do not want a statute to him on our WH. I still believe the Federal Government should not push one religion over another.
2 Corinthians 6:14 KJV [14] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
https://bible.com/bible/1/2co.6.14.KJV
I was not much of a believer when I got married. But have been married 50 years and still pray my husband becomes a Christian.
It must be difficult. Bless your heart.
Here's something... https://www.gotquestions.org/married-unbeliever.html
ThanQ for that link. And it is difficult. I became born again in my early 60's. Just wish I had done it sooner
I am currently in two bible studies (one women's group in my community and one women's group in my church). So I have plenty of prayer warriors on my side.
My husband had a health scare one day last year and I did finally give him the low down on his need to become one with Christ. I told him what he needed to do to be one of His children. He got very quiet. I know it did affect him. He knows he needs saving to go to Heaven to atone for all his sins and accept Christ as his Savior.
But so far as I know he has not taken me up. on it.
Praying for you both. I really am, Swimkin.
We can only plant the seed and pray and God through the Holy Spirit convicts the person and waters the planted seed.
It's all so big for my human comprehension.. All i know is that His will is perfect.
Romans 12:12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation and be constant in prayer.
if they do, they should make it as big as the one down in Rio.
Add to it "THE BEATITUDES"
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."
Matt Wallace is a grifter. Most of what he posts is fiction. He has capitalized on the fact that people constantly mistake his posts as from the much more well-known MATT WALSH.
crucifix maybe rather than a portrayal of Jesus with outstretched arms?
No crucifix. He’s no longer on the cross.
No.
edit- -2 people are stupid as fuck thinking Church and State should reunite
I am more concerned with him ending the fed and ensuring election integrity…. That matters more
If President Trump wants to put one up for his comfort, I don't have a problem with that. If the next president wishes to remove it, I don't have a problem with that either.
The comments never disappoint with these types of threads...
u/#swedishpopcorn
No one knows what Jesus looks like. It’s blasphemy to make a picture or statue of some Italian model and claim it’s Jesus.
No. Orthodoxy does not believe in statues, because in the past often representations of demonic gods were created and then worshipped. We use icons when we pray, but we don't worship them. We see them as windows to those represented, who hear us and help us when we pray. So, don't need a statue. Also, this would be decried as the establishment of a particular religion. It's just not needed.