BIBLE TIME: Charlie's murder was a violation of God's divine order, not Erika Kirk's... She sinned against God by forgiving him without his repentence. No theologian would have agreed with the outrageous suggestion that we unconditionally forgive those who abuse and murder our family members.
(media.greatawakening.win)
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The Lord's prayer says: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." No disclaimers, and it is the condition of the forgiveness of our own sins. In this case, heroic virtue. Erika did NOT sin by this generous act of the will to conform to the words of the Our Father.
Yeah, and what about,
"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
To add to your post
St. Augustine sermon 114 on The Lord's Prayer
I think Erika forgave him for the hurt he caused her personally by taking away her loved one. It does not mean the killer is absolved of his sin. Thats between him and God.
Yes. I think this fits too. Vengeance belongs to God. At times I believe God ushered in the USA because He was tired of seeing His people being slaughtered in this world. He Loves all but we know people by their fruit. God has given the greatest gift to USA CITIZENS. A birthright to be allowed to judge others in realtime.
Turning the other cheek doesn’t not mean to not use the Constitution we are birthed with in the USA. Turning the check is having your brain turned on and if one attacks you and you start destroying them and they ask for mercy, we can stand them up and be friends.
Christianity in the USA is the last stand in this world and so many Americans believe they should kneel at this evil and allow them to be the master…. We cannot serve two masters. Americans HAVE to make a decision. Both decisions will end in a Spiritual War and also a physical war… yet we with our families have already been in the physical war.
God created the USA so Christians can destroy and rebuke evil. Not to allow evil to prosper with beguiling jest taunting sickness. :)
THIS
Her forgiveness is about what's in HER heart not his
Anything that says otherwise is vestigal Jewish stuff that Christians don't need
The bible is an IQ test for people to eventually figure out that the old God isn't the same as the new one; he's a jealous petty god of vengeance, rules, kingmaking and division; the real God of the new testament is the god of love, forgiveness, equality and truth
the old god keeps humans in a tribal divisive anticivilizational state, the new one allows humans to build bridges and ditch their monkeyhood for starhood
I don't believe God forgives injustice. Ever. I can forgive someone for an act of injustice when they ask for forgiveness. But they still have to pay the debt.
Wow. That is an intense and hard view to hold. Where may I ask- respectfully is the hope in that relationship or again I am not being anything but curious How does a relationship with God work with that view? It is none of my business I just literally feel compelled to ask
I don’t agree with his position, but think it does offer something we should consider, per my comment.
We should be terrified (hopefully only to an extent) of intentional sin, but the modern church is all like “GRAAAAAAAACE! Do what thou wilt! (*except porn. Yeah, that’s about it.)”.
Part of repentance that doesn’t get mentioned often is “atonement/reconciliation”. We tend to assume that Jesus did it all and there’s nothing left for us to do, but is that what scripture says?
There’s also a difference between intentional and unintentional sins.
We have a lot of work to do to get this fixed…
We forgive because hate will rot your heart. We forgive those that trespass against us and leave justice to God be cause this is His creation. If the assassin repents to God and seeks the Lord Jesus Christ as his savior, then we shall see him in heaven.
Hmm.
And so when Jesus said this:
Matthew 6:14-15: “For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
Was he contradicting... himself?
Or
In Colossians 3:13, was Paul leaving a "gotcha" out and leading people astray?
“Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.”
Or
Again in Ephesians 4:32:“Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.”
Or
Maybe Jesus forgot about that part here too...
Matthew 18:21-22: “Then Peter came up and said to him, ‘Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?’ Jesus said to him, ‘I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.’”
That Jesus... so forgetful....
Mark 11:25: “And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.”
Here He goes again (sigh)
Luke 6:37: “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven.”
Ahh! Here's the missing perspective...
Scholars often distinguish between transactional forgiveness (restoring a relationship after repentance, as in Luke 17:3-4) and unilateral forgiveness (releasing personal resentment, as in Mark 11:25). The Bible encourages the latter as a posture of the heart, even if the former awaits repentance.
Conditional Forgiveness: Passages like Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17 suggest that in cases of personal offense, especially within the church, forgiveness is often tied to repentance to restore relationships fully. This aligns with the idea that forgiveness includes reconciliation, which requires mutual acknowledgment of the wrong.
Unconditional Forgiveness: Verses like Mark 11:25 and Matthew 5:44-45 emphasize a heart of forgiveness, encouraging believers to release resentment and pray for others, even enemies, without explicitly requiring repentance. This reflects forgiveness as an internal act that frees the forgiver from bitterness and aligns with God’s merciful character.
The Bible does not explicitly say, “Do not forgive people who aren’t repentant.” Instead, it presents forgiveness as both a relational act (often tied to repentance for reconciliation, as in Luke 17:3-4 and Matthew 18:15-17) and a personal act (releasing bitterness regardless of repentance, as in Mark 11:25 and Matthew 5:44-45). Believers are encouraged to maintain a forgiving heart, modeled on God’s mercy, while pursuing reconciliation when repentance occurs. The emphasis is on aligning with God’s character, avoiding harboring resentment, and seeking peace, even if full restoration depends on the offender’s response.
Please be careful with God's Word.
The first guy in the Bible to misuse it, he wasn't good.
Oh - btw - "revenge and resentment can be held for as long as needed until the infraction is discharged or the soul decides to let it go"
Hmmmm.... Let's see what the Bible says...
Romans 12:19 says, "Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' says the Lord."
Leviticus 19:18 also commands, "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself."
Deuteronomy 32:35: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them."
Leviticus 19:18: "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone among your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
Matthew 5:38-39: "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for an eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."
Ephesians 4:26-27: "‘In your anger do not sin’: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold."
Matthew 5:43-44: "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."
1 Peter 3:9: "Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult. On the contrary, repay evil with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing."
Goodnight.
As you will know, Jesus did not forget anything and there is no contradiction. I believe 1) the answer is found in God's spiritual law, (Matthew 7:2) "With what measure you measure to another it'll be (used) measured back to you" So if you require someone to repent before you forgive them, you cannot be forgiven until you repent, based on the fact that You told God it was good enough for yourself when you measuring it to someone else. 2) The very words of Jesus,"Father forgive them they know not what they do" was a cry for forgiveness, by our Lord, for others,before they repented, and while they were crucifying him.
(I was being sarcastic) ;)
Thank you very much that was an excellent comment and I learned a lot.
Plenty of scripture quoted that refutes your conclusion. A lot of anons have already posted them so I won’t regurgitate. I would say it’s imperative that we read our bibles. I Pray for discernment and guidance to all here.
The statement you gave has two parts:
True observation: Charlie Kirk’s murder was a violation of God’s divine order. That’s correct. All sin is ultimately against God (Ps. 51:4), and murder is a direct assault on the image of God in man (Gen. 9:6).
False conclusion: That Erika Kirk sinned by forgiving without the assassin’s repentance. This misfires on several fronts.
God’s command on personal forgiveness: Believers are called to forgive as they have been forgiven (Matt. 6:14–15; Eph. 4:32). Jesus doesn’t put a footnote there: “unless the sinner hasn’t yet repented.” That’s courtroom justice, not personal forgiveness.
Distinguishing forgiveness from absolution: Erika’s act of forgiveness was not an ecclesiastical decree that washed away the assassin’s sin before God. She wasn’t announcing justification. She was personally refusing to harbor bitterness. That’s entirely biblical.
Justice still stands: Forgiveness doesn’t erase the gallows. A Christian can forgive a murderer and still press for the full penalty of the law (Rom. 13:4). Those aren’t contradictions; they’re complementary.
The “no theologian” claim: That’s just flat wrong. The church fathers, Reformers, and Puritans consistently taught that Christians should forgive from the heart, even in cases of grave injury. Read Calvin on Matthew 6:14 or Thomas Watson on the Lord’s Prayer. They weren’t sentimentalists, but they were biblical.
Saying Erika Kirk sinned by forgiving her husband’s murderer is like saying Corrie ten Boom sinned by forgiving the Nazis. No, the real sin would be nursing the grudge like a pet viper. She didn’t forgive on behalf of God; she forgave on behalf of Erika. And that’s exactly what the gospel requires.
Now, does that mean the assassin gets a free pass? Absolutely not. God requires justice, and Romans 13 says the magistrate carries a sword, not a pillow. But Erika’s forgiveness doesn’t dull that blade; it keeps her from trying to seize it for herself.
To accuse her of sin for forgiving is to confuse the heavenly courtroom with the living room. God alone absolves. Christians release. The cross demands that distinction.
So, let’s put it this way: her forgiveness wasn’t a distortion of God’s order — it was one of the few things in this whole bloody mess that did reflect it.
A good TLDR on this thread might be:
What a curious, if not strange, post and interpretation of the truth.
"Only God can forgive?" Whew. That's so messed up on so many levels.
Firstly, every child of God is called to follow Christ's path, which is the manifestation of God's path. As God forgives, so do we. This is HOW we emulate God. It is God's nature shining through us.
Secondly, what is sin? Sin is any thought or action that results in establishing a connection to Satan. Committing a sin creates a connection to Satan, and a condition for Satan to engage with the sinner, spiritually.
Metaphorically speaking, it creates a 'claim' that Satan can legitimately assert before God that he has on the sinner. It creates a spiritual debt. Satan can claim the debt. Christ can forgive that debt, and resolve it, (and God through Christ).
But the principle when someone wrongs you is the same. They create a debt to you. This is the entire basis of common law. So, when someone wrongs me, I can forgive the claim I have on them. They damaged by car. I can forgive them, if I want to. I am the owner who has the claim on the debt.
But when a sinner commits an act that both sins against God and hurts me, I can certainly forgive the debt the sinner owes me, and that is 100% separate from the dept that is owned by Satan and owed to God.
Two different things.
Example. If someone owes me $1000 I can forgive that debt. Unilaterally if i want to. Of course. The person might come to me and say, here's your money, and I could say, don't worry about it. I forgive your debt. You are free of that debt.
Or, I might make some condition. Say you are sorry, and I'll forgive your debt.
When (whoever) murdered her husband did that action, they created a debt not only to God but also Erika. Erika can forgive the debt to her, but (obviously) not the debt incurred to God or the claim held by Satan.
So, we can say that one function of forgiveness is to remove a debt (someone - the debtor) owes to (someone - the creditor). But, one can only remove a debt that is owed to (me) or a debt that I have authority over. God can forgive the debts owed to Him.
But there is also another, very important function of forgiveness. When someone wrongs me, the natural response is pain and hurt. If someone you love wrongs you, it hurts you deeply, in the heart.
This creates a wound, which if left unresolved can become calloused. Hard. Like scar tissue. It can fester, it can grow. Those scars on the heart are what prevent us from loving others in the same way that God loves us: Unconditionally.
This is the core human issue. Our natural and innate ability to love others is impeded by the scars and wounds our hearts suffer from before we are born until we depart the earth. Those scars can also cause our heart to contract inwards, to tighten up, like a fist, or like a battered weather beaten skin that grows hard to protect itself from the pain caused by being alive and sensitive.
Forgiveness is the tonic of love that can remove the scar, and bring healing to the hurt in one's heart. It is invariably true that you cannot truly love someone if you hold a hurt (resentment) against them. If they wrong you, but you do not forgive them, you cannot by definition truly love them.
So, as many here have pointed out, one of the reasons we forgive is to liberate ourselves from the hurt, pain and negative connection that was caused when someone hurt us. We can most certainly do this unilaterally. We do not require their repentance or request for clemency.
In practice, of course, repentance on the part of one who hurts us can make it easier for us to forgive, but we can observe there are many instances when someone repents but the other person refuses or decides they will not ("cannot" is a choice here) forgive the other.
Who here is hurt? The one who cannot forgive. Because the hurt creates a barrier, often one that grows, to their ability to give and ALSO, to receive love, too.
And, the very purpose of our lives given by God is to grow and mature our ability to give and receive love.
Why did Christ pray on the cross "Father, forgive them?" Not because those who rejected and crucified him repented. But rather, he was interceding on the behalf of fallen humanity. Personally, I think he did this partly in order to comfort God's heart, and through that love, help to heal God's painful heart.
Jesus opened the way for God to forgive all humanity because of his (Jesus') love.
Before Jesus arrived on earth, there was never anyone who could love God to the extent that Jesus could, or love other human beings, fallen humankind, to the extent that God could. From a real, practical and spiritual perspective, THIS is how and why Jesus could become the intermediary, reconnecting lost humankind with God, the Father. Love.
Jesus faced and overcame the ultimate pain. The ones he was sent to love, and loved with a heart as great as God's, rejected him. Jesus loved every single person he ever met, even when he rebuked them or chastised them. Do you really think he did not love the Pharisees? Or the people who shouted for his Crucifixion?
He who loves opens himself to pain. It's axiomatic. The (spiritual) heart is a spiritual organ at the base of our being that can access and transmit the power of love. We feel love through that spiritual organ. It is our root, or core nature.
Jesus' love never wavered. And by overcoming the pain their rejection caused him, and loving them still, he did a few things. One, he became the first person to bring true comfort and relief to God's heart, the Father whose children betrayed him and united with his enemy.
That heart of God was wounded deeply, and only really began to heal when Jesus came and loved him. And, when Jesus experienced that same rejection that God did, without cursing or turning away, no longer was God alone in loving humanity.
Jesus could not have maintained his love if he did not forgive those that hurt him. You cannot truly love if you are unable to forgive.
When Erika Kirk forgave Charlie's murderer, she didn't liquidate the debt owed to Satan that the murderer incurred by his choices, his actions.
But she did liquidate the debt he owed to her. And, more importantly, she opened the way within herself to be able love that murderer. Despite the incredible pain she bore, she removed the scar and damage on her heart that could have prevented her from loving that person.
It is often the case that forgiveness will in fact precipitate repentance and sorrow from the one causing the hurt. Why? Because forgiveness is the practical manifestation of love, and some people need love and are moved by love to change course.
So, in the end, we should not confuse the issues at stake. The sin that the murderer committed against God, only God can forgive. But the wrong that the murderer committed against Erica, only she can forgive. And in forgiving, she freed herself from the negative bonds of pain, anger, resentment etc, that Satan wanted to forge in her heart. She overcame.
The murderer now has options. Confronted by such great tangible love, he might actually see the error of his ways. Or, he might not. He may continue along what is left of his life trapped in the hellish nightmare Satan created for him.
The issue here is not 'oh, if you simply forgive all the people that are doing evil in the world, they just continue to keep doing it'. The issue is, if you are unable to see these people as the instruments (victims) of Satan that they are, you may become unable to free your heart from impact of the wrongness they commit(ted).
If the supreme value in the universe were Justice, no human being would ever escape hell. But because the supreme value is true, perfect love, the way is open for God to forgive us. Jesus opened up that way, spiritually, because he practiced true, prefect love. That's why he forgives. When we emulate him, we multiply his reach.
Was this for me? From a quick scan, I don’t disagree. Maybe I worded the summary poorly?
Nah. I just threw it under your comment because a) wanted you to read it and b) seemed like a good spot.
I like the way you summarized and created a TLDR. 'Twas good.
Edit: Ps. I was talking about Cats post specifically. You seem adept at saying things in 30 words. For whatever reason, I lean towards using 3000.
Whatcha gonna do?
I do the same thing on these threads 😆
Adept in brevity? Ne’er the accused have ere been. Great glee exudes!
No, We forgive no matter what the other person does. That does not mean the other person does not face justice. It just means we will not allow what that person did derail our walk with God.
If it is against us, yes.
Here is a case where it was against God - And Peter laid down the Law:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/act/5/1/s_1023001
Forgiveness isn’t about excusing someone else, it’s about freeing ourselves. We forgive so that we, too, can be forgiven. That truth never changes. Forgiving doesn’t erase consequences, it only keeps bitterness from taking root in our hearts.
I agree. This was an issue of God's honor and Glory, not any personal issue with the couple involved, I don't believe Peter had bitterness against Ananias and Sapphira, nor did he have a personal offense against them, either. Peter even says directly -You haven't sinned against me, but against God!
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/act/5/1/s_1023001
In fact, he explained to them the full of their sin - 1) it was your property to do with as you pleased: you could have sold it and said we are donating part because - any number of reasons. 2) When you make a vow to God you are responsible to keep it. but you premeditated this deception to say we are bringing the full price when it was partial - they could have brought the gift and said nothing. 3) This was essentially an act against the whole congregation, a direct sin against God, and done with a 'high hand' -since it was in front of the whole congregation, inferred by Acts 5:11.
Jesus even brings up what to do if there is a personal matter and the person refuses to repent: Matthew 18: 15 - 19
So yes, we forgive all who offend us. But I can't forgive a sin against you -it's your part, and it would be presuming falsely a right that is not mine If I were to do so.
If I read between the lines, I would say that it bugs catsfive to no end that Erika forgave the assassin. I understand because I feel the same way.
Let's tell the whole world she "sinned against God" for forgiving the murderer
Yea, that will really show em who's boss. Way to go cats, makes this board look real classy.
If you can forgive someone, it's you who feels the relief. Jesus taught love, not revenge.
Sorry Cats - I usually agree with your perspective. I believe you are wrong on this one.
Yea this is an extremely hot take. We have NOTHING without forgiveness. What she did was extremely graceful
Spiritually mature
Forgiveness is often for the benefit of the one who has been sinned against. I forgave my father years ago for the chaos he caused...not because he asked for it (I never even saw him again before he died, and he would likely have never asked) but because I needed to be released from the heavy burden of carrying all that baggage around. My dad inflicted pain in the past, but I had the power stop him from living rent free in my head in the present.
Perhaps you've hit upon a crucial piece of doctrinal disagreement which I often have to address with my evangelical friends. God's gift of salvation is available NOW, the wages of sin--Jesus's death instead of ours--has already occurred. God sent Jesus to die before we were even born, (and we could have a fascinating conversation about how God exists outside the construct of time), one death for all. All that's left is for us to receive that gift. There is no decision needed from us to be saved, God decided that all may be saved through his son. Therefore, there's no magical prayer or magical age of understanding required to achieve the gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 states "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works."
It's faith. Have faith. Forgive someone who hurt you in the past who cannot or won't ask you for that forgiveness. Imagine that person's life being turned around a decade down the road and he does, indeed approach you for forgiveness, and you are able to say "That was forgiven long ago." What a gift to that guy...not only forgiveness, but the knowledge that his misdeeds of which he just repented didn't weigh you down for that decade.
Wrong. No preconditions on forgiving someone.
Jesus forgave over and over without the person 1st repenting. He forgave those that nailed Him to the cross, cast lots for His garment, those that spat , mocked and cursed Him and those gathered at the foot of the cross blaspheming Him.
He is gentle and lowly of heart. All come unto Him and He will.recieve any man.
Christ is so above the tit for tat.
Forgiving heaps burning coals upon the one being forgiven, in that it may lead them to repentance and Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
No silver medals of saints will help in times of need; only the full armor of God fitted and burnished by God Himself through His Son and Holy Spirit. Not saint worship.
Faith produces repentance and then works. Works are a by-product of saving faith in Jesus Christ's propitatory and atoning death, and life, after the cross. Works are the natural progression of being a Christian. Not works alone. We are saved by grace alone, not works alone..
Washed in the blood yields the new birth; the old man is replaced with the new man, and our hearts of stone are replaced with a heart of flesh. A circumcision of the heart occurs and the blood washes us white as snow and we're redeemed by said blood and presented to the Father as justified, with Jesus as our paraclete.. He took our deserved punishment and God's wrath so that we may be adopted as sons of God. Our abba Father.
This seems to be YET another case of someone who knows little or nothing about Christianity tries to show some discrepancy or "hypocritical act" on the part of a Christian. They usually cite some Bible verse out of context too.
We are all at different levels of understanding. It's typically best to use scripture to enlighten
Yep, cats needs a vacation. And probably should be removed as mod
It is BOTH/AND. Christians are commanded to both forgive when the other party repents AND when they do not.
There are enough both/ands in Scripture that this makes sense....
C5 fires round for effect...
It seems to me that true forgiveness requires a lot of trust in God.
The word I would use is 'faith' - but I guess it amounts to the same thing.
Faith in yourself and the other person as well. Not just God. The faith in God is that everything will work out. The faith in yourself is that extending the olive branch and being accountable for your actions is a good thing and that ultimately the fruits of integrity will make everything better for everyone. The faith in the other person is that they will rise above and accept the forgiveness in a real way, because they see your worth is greater than the grudge they hold.
I can tell you personally that forgiveness is one of THE most powerful and transformative things in your life. I had a many-year issue with my stepfather, it was my fault and he's a grudge holding person. I apologized to him in a real way and our relationship has fundamentally changed for the better. I love him and he loves me and now we're doing outdoor stuff together. It makes me cry when I think if I hadn't found the courage to ask him for forgiveness, he'd forever be angry with me and me at him, and then our time before that would have no meaning at all.
That forgiveness is healing I have no doubt, and have benefited from.
My faith in the other person is where I would have to disagree. I have faith that the universe (God) will balance things out and the other person will live their story in line with God's plan - and I accept that I don't really have any say over that.
However, I have been down that road of reconciliation with my own father - you want to know how that ended? He sent me a death threat on my 40th birthday. We haven't spoken since.
I don't hold any grudges, but I have no faith that he will ever reach out to me, and I'm done being the one always holding out the olive branch only to have it shoved down my throat :)
Indeed!
Jesus forgave me before I repented. Thank-You, Lord.
No evidence of guilt yet so not sure how you can forgive the "killer" at this juncture.
Sure hope the downvotes are not indicitive of people who actually believe "Robinson killed Kirk"...that would be sad.
We all this shit was for political posturing so it just makes Conservatives look better compared to psycho lefties.
Long read but I agree with this guy. Only God can forgive. For us mortals, revenge and resentment can be held for as long as needed until the infraction is discharged or the soul decides to let it go.
Also, interesting comment stream.
Stickying this for the night crew.
https://x.com/kevinnbass/status/1970712293898846342
Bad take my dude. I left an extensive exegesis on this as a top level comment I would encourage you to read.
Then in that case you also believe that Trump's comments at the funeral we're also heretical.
The forgiveness is real. But so are the upcoming retributions to the Deep state. Forgiving them will only lead to more abuses and the bible is absolutely full from top to bottom with retribution.
If you had read the response I pointed to you would have seen that I make the clear biblical distinction between the categories of forgiveness and justice.
How about you go reply there AFTER you read it.
As for what Trump said you'll need to be specific. I was there and I didn't hear any "heretical" positions come out of his mouth. I heard some things that were unchristian but that's a different category.
I think you are using words you don't understand...
Heretical refers to beliefs or teachings that fundamentally contradict core Christian doctrine - such as denying the Trinity, rejecting Christ's divinity, or teaching that salvation comes through works alone rather than grace. Heresy is specifically about doctrinal error that threatens the foundation of Christian faith.
Vs
Unchristian/Unchristlike refers to behavior or attitudes that contradict Christian values and teachings - things like being unloving, dishonest, greedy, or cruel. These are moral failings that go against the spirit of Christianity, but they're typically seen as human weaknesses that can be repented of and corrected.
If you can't basic terminology right do you think you can really go toe to toe with my on deeper exegesis? This is my field of study. I welcome the challenge though. Fire away. (Below the actual top level comment I made)
I posted this link to drive discussion here on GAW, not to start a pissing match with you. Trump's comments at the funeral run counter to simply blindly forgiving our opponents/oppressors and stand in stark contrast to Erika Kirk's sentiments. I am correct in stating that Trump's comments were 'heretical' to your point (i.e., you could likely legitimately send to him what you just did to me). Every single one of us knows that Trump sees himself as God's hand of earthly retribution.
We do however appreciate your epic contribution to this discussion.
Good on you, catsfive.
Thanks. We are all doing our best and are on the same side in the end.
Trying to frame this is a pissing contest isa bit intellectually dishonest. I'm not having a pissing contest, this is a theological discussion which is encouraged throughout scripture.
Trump's comments are not christ-like in that particular regard, that does not equate to heresy. Again... 2 distinct categories.
As far as Trump seeing himself as God's hand of retribution.... you're so close....
Scripture tells us that governing authorities are appointed by God as his earthly tools of Justice:
Romans 13:3–4 (NASB 1995) "For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil."
Psalm 82:1–4 (NASB 1995) "God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. How long will you judge unjustly And show partiality to the wicked? Selah. Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and needy; Save them from the hand of the wicked."
1 Peter 2:13–14 (NASB 1995) "Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right."
I appreciate your work here and contributions as well sir thank you.
This was such an absolutely gorgeous and beautiful comment. Thank you, frog. You are doing the Lord's work around here.
Thank you sir! You are putting in much appreciated work yourself!
He deleted that thread.
Also, nothing about what you're saying is biblical. What are your scriptural sources?
I'm with Cats on this. Besides the fact that that (lovely, I'm sure) woman's whole program/background does not pass the smell test…
Christ's own words imply He forgave the Roman soldiers who were crucifying him because they literally "did not know what they were doing."
They were a tool of the envious Jewish leaders whom Christ had just called a "den of vipers."
Get it?
Here's the distinction: The Roman soldiers sinned, against Jesus… The Jews were waging war against him.
Waging war against someone is NOT the same as "sinning against them."
"Father forgive them (Roman soldiers), for (because) they know not what they do." ~Jesus
The Bible never mentions if Jesus forgave His TRUE killers: the 'den of vipers', 'whose father is the devil & king of lies.'** (What Jesus called them)
Maybe He forgave them later...
OR
Maybe He came back in 70 A.D. and burned their synagogue of Satan to the ground.
The Bible is quiet on both those points.
The bottom line:
Pilot was heavily pressured into it by the Jewish religious rulers who essentially gave Pilot the choice (threat): get rid of Jesus or there's going to be civil unrest among the populace.
The words above in green are objectively factual... not an 'opinion'.
If you disagree, then consider deciding you want to know more than what fits in your current belief system AND THEN crack your Bible and level up.
Condensed sauce:
https://files.catbox.moe/k99o5l.jpeg
Reply to u/DemPanicAtTheDisco
It is you who is carving up the definition of the word "sin".
In BOTH the Hebrew and Greek, the definition of the word sin also disagrees with your premise.
https://files.catbox.moe/rg8fag.jpeg
The Roman soldiers "missed the mark". They were wrong and did a wrong against Jesus.
The Jewish elders/leaders didn't miss anything… They knew what they were doing. It was deliberate.
Maybe you need to make up a new word because the definition for the word "sin" that you are using
is F a c t u a l l y incorrect.
If you can't address that 👆🏽in a response then you don't have a leg to stand on, NOR any integrity in the matter.
That's like carving the Bible up like it’s a Thanksgiving turkey, then handing out the drumsticks only to people you already like. The claim here is that Jesus forgave the soldiers because they were just “tools” and not really culpable, while the Jewish leaders were the “real killers,” and therefore outside the blast radius of His forgiveness. But this is like saying, “Sure, I forgive the trigger finger, but not the man who pulled the trigger.” That’s not theology, that’s a bad courtroom drama.
First, sin is sin, whether it comes as a single stab wound or an organized war effort. The soldiers sinned. Pilate sinned. The Jewish rulers sinned. The crowd crying “Crucify him!” sinned. And Peter, who denied Him, sinned. Scripture does not offer us the luxury of making up a neat hierarchy where some sins count as “waging war” while others are just casual misdemeanors. The Bible calls all of it rebellion against God.
Second, Christ’s prayer, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34), was not Him making a fine philosophical distinction between culpable Pharisees and innocent Roman grunts. He was interceding for His murderers, full stop. And Acts 2 proves it, because Peter turns around at Pentecost and preaches to some of the same crowd—“this Jesus whom you crucified”—and then three thousand repent and are forgiven. The very ones complicit in His death received the fruit of that prayer.
Third, the idea that the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was Christ’s way of not forgiving is to confuse God’s judgment with Christ’s mercy. Yes, judgment fell on hardened unbelief, but that doesn’t erase the fact that many of those “vipers” also repented and entered the kingdom. Paul himself was one of those vipers, breathing out murderous threats against Christ’s people. And yet he didn’t just get forgiven, he got drafted as an apostle. (I'm proud of you for getting your escapology right though about Christ's judgment on Jerusalem tho!)
So the bottom line? To pit “forgiveness of the soldiers” against “vengeance on the rulers” is to pit Christ against Himself. And that won’t do. The cross was not a boutique act of forgiveness for some of the guilty—it was the ground of forgiveness for anyone guilty who turns in faith.
In other words: Christ’s forgiveness on the cross was not a laser pointer singling out the rank-and-file while skipping the brass. It was a floodlight covering the whole bloody mess.
Nice. Excellent points
Well Said! I cordially invite you to join us @Christianity.win!
Thanks but I'm just going to be salt and light out here where there's more eyeballs.
I'm already surrounded by other Christians several days a week.
This is a ministry field as much as it is a forum. Lots of seeds to sew here.
Fair enough! I appreciate your ministry here!
I AGREE, I believe we are called to forgive those that have hurt us , WHEN they repent of their actions. Most people do not understand that Forgiveness is a contract between two parties. The Offender and the Offended. UNTIL the former seeks the forgiveness of the offended we can only be PREPARED to FORGIVE.
No sin. She did what was necessary to cleanse her soul of bitterness. Better than I would be probably.
Forgiveness - It doesn’t mean you’re ok with what they did. It doesn’t mean you absolve them of responsibility. It means you will no longer be held prisoner by someone else’s actions.
I sin.
It is my nature as a fallen human to sin, despite the indwelling Holey Spirit.
Some of my sins I know I've committed (or omitted).
Others I do not.
Christ's Blood covers them all, unconditionally.
You've misinterpreted the verse, which is easy to do.
The verse doesn't say, Only forgive a person if they ask for repentance. And you don't find that anywhere in Scripture.
Food for thought:
The shooter is obviously the puppet of an ideology that requires puppets to do their bidding. These puppets are brainwashed, in much the same way that my own kids have been alienated from me by their mother, my malignant narcissistic ex-wife.
She's made me out to the villain of their story, much like those in power on the Left made Charlie Kirk and all of the rest of us in MAGA the villain of the shooter's story.
Were I not to forgive my children - who are not responsible for anything they've said or done since being brainwashed to live out their mom's evil agenda against us - I would be sinning.
Same stuff, different details.
I'm sorry that happened to you fren
Thanks, Free. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Good thing God works all things for good.
Please read the whole book. There is peace and salvation in it. Say the Lord's prayer, given to us by Jesus Christ. If we do not forgive those who trespass us, we can not ask for forgiveness from God. As i have said, living the words of the Gospel requires strength to stretch ourselves, to do what is against our human nature, often. We become our full potential under Christ, not just in avoiding sin, but in forgiving others. We really are expected to better than the angry horde and the man blinded by resentment. If you want to call that virtue signalling, go right ahead.While it may seen counter intuitive to reject sin and forgiving it at the same time, Christ knows we are capable of it. Let Go and Let God. Ericka showed wisdom beyond her years. My Dad taught me the Lords prayer when I was about 5 years old. He prayed with me every night. I asked him what a trespass was, he told me that it was when someone hurt me or stole something from me. He told me in childs terms, of course, and as I have gone through life, I grew into the understanding. Praying for our enemies does bring peace, and if you cannot find it in your heart to, which is understandable, you can either ask God to give you strength to live up to his expectations, or ask HIM to forgive for you, and to forgive you of your short comings.. Resentment and anger turn inwards on you, it causes physical illness within you, not in someone else. It causes a person to ruminate all day long, instead of rejoicing in the day that God made for you to live in. Everything that the Gospel teaches is for your own good, and in our goodness, we can change the world. The miracle of living the word was in Erickas statement. May God live inside of each of us as beautifully as it was in her.
Jesus might have called ALL those who downvoted everyone on this page BECAUSE they were EMOTIONAL, confused. Cmon everyone we are better than this.
I love love love these types of discussions. Yes they can get the most contentious but they also always always teach me things I either didn’t know or make me shift my perspective from I know to hmm maybe I need to revisit that. They often help me know what I know by what I defend and why. This is IMHO how we are able to always be willing and able to reliever an answer when called out. So I can just give a blanket Not being gay when I gush and a I still love you when I am being a bit snarky on these post because I get really into the amazing back and forth.
How do you guys question everything else but believe the bible 100%? Is there no doubt in your mind that is was written by mortal men with their own agendas? If scripture was so important surely Jesus would have written something himself?
No downvote from me. Honest questions deserve answers.
I will make this point first: One does not die for what one knows to be a lie.
These are legitimate questions.
There are long, thorough answers for this, if you are interested. I would also point out just as there are evil agendas, there are good ones as well.
https://arkencounter.com/blog/2017/04/07/5-evidences-that-show-bible-is-true/
https://www.gotquestions.org/is-the-Bible-true.html
https://www.gotquestions.org/why-should-I-believe-the-Bible.html
Whether Jesus wrote anything himself is somewhat up for debate, because some manuscripts do not contain this record from John 8. But there is a record of Jesus writing in this passage, and as a bonus, I will give you what I believe He wrote to get everyone to leave:
John 8: 1 - 11 https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/8/1/s_1005006
The text specifically says - They brought her alone. So He tells them, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.!" So what was He pointing out?
This was a both / and issue -they should have brought the man as well, according to Leviticus 20: 10
I believe, based on this, He was writing the section of the Law that contains this passage.
This prompted everyone to leave, from oldest (who should have recognized it first) to the youngest.
Christians are basically hypocrites and very gullible....
Look how many fell for the Scoffield bible
Whether one can interpret it that way is up for debate, there are valid points on both sides.
Regardless, Jesus forgave the people who put Him on the cross, both Jews and Gentiles, pleading ignorance on their part. So I would say we are free to forgive those who sin against us in their ignorance, and often (see the life of Elizabeth Elliot and others) this will bring about the conversion of even those responsible! See Luke 23: 34 -48 (Even one of the centurions responsible converts, as does a thief on the cross, and the people go home beating their chests as a sign of sorrow! - Israelites and Judeans!)
https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/luk/23/1/s_996001 (the whole chapter will show up for you, you can scroll down to see the particular passage I cite)
Elizabeth Elliot's story of her husband, Jim Elliot , being murdered by the Auca Indians can be read (short version) here:
https://elisabethelliot.org/about/
The longer version can be read in her book, Through Gates Of Splendor.
This is a two part system. Forgiveness is from the victim of another's sinful action. Repentance is from the perpetrator of that action. A victim can forgive any time she likes, and God would prefer that we always forgive. Forgiving someone does not mean the forgiven is free from the obligation of repentance.
This is not true. Harboring unforgiveness is sin.