Because Jews take advantage of Christians any and every way they can. They hide behind their "God's chosen people" nonsense, and Christians let them. Newsflash to my Christian brothers and sisters here. The Jews of the world today are NOT Hebrew. They are European, and they adopted the religion for the sole purpose of screwing Christians over. Wake up.
Don't get me wrong. I believe people have the right to believe whatever they want. However, no one should get a blank check to do whatever they want all the time, simply because they claim to be "God's chosen people."
Exactly. God's people are those in Christ. There is no Jew or gentile, only the church (those that are in Christ) and the world (everyone else including Jews that reject Him)
I think that point needs to be better fleshed out. I got piled on for sugguesting it and tbh I'm not entirely sure either way. There are verses in which Paul seems to allude to the literal, blood-lineage Hebrews (all 12 tribes, not just Judah), still have some special part to play in things. There are other verses though which seem to annul the difference between them and gentiles, as long as both parties believe in Christ.
Yes but what I was leaning towards iirc, was that the Hebrews spear-headed the union between God and man (which was lost in Eden), and the gentiles followed suit, and we (who believe) are all now essentially one body. "Grafted into the vine"
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"...will make your descendents as numerous as the sands of the sea"
How would this be possible if it were limited to Hebrews only?
Are gentile believers in Christ not now descendents of Abraham, who believed God, since we too believe God?
All the answers you seek can be found in the book of Hebrews (A letter to the Jews in Rome) Author: unknown, some think Paul.
Synopsis: How the old law prophesied and set up perfectly thr New Law (or covenant) to move from physical things to spiritual things ie. Nation of Israel to the church.
And Galatians (A letter to the church in Galatia) written by Paul
Synopsis: Imploring them not to listen to the Jews who were trying to make them follow the old law because it's done.
I hope this helps! If you have any other questions I'd be happy to help with specific verses if you need.
Thank you fren. That is pretty much where I'm at with it. I've got another few questions out to someone else in this thread, waiting on response. Feel free to jump in if you'd like
I see, you are not the one who is confused there in fact good on you for utilizing scripture and scripture only. The covenant to Abraham's seed was to everyone and is what translated into both the old and new law or covenant.
I've heard it said by a wise old preacher (now in heaven) that the entire bible's theme is: God came back.
By God blessing Abraham's seed he is saying that every nation on Earth (don't forget Ishmael) would have the opportunity to eternal life. This isn't some hidden Indian Jones relic we need to unpack here. And like you so adequately stated To the Jew first and also to the Greek or Jew and Gentile.
Peter meeting with Cornelius in Acts 10 after his vision is proof that God was reaching out to the Gentiles. But it was the Jew first because they were the first nation, the ones under the old law.
Paul in Ephesians 3:1 makes it know. His aim was to preach to the Gentiles.
So the old law was nailed to the cross "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second." Hebrews 8:7 because it couldn't save, it couldn't save because no one could keep it and the blood of bulls and goats did not wash sins away like the blood of Jesus does after baptism. Romans 6:1-5.
And this is where it ends. The promise to Abraham's seed is fulfilled in God taking care of His children in the old and the New covenant offering salvation to all who would submit to Him.
I really hope this makes sense you can kick me and ask me to clarify any points I didn't explain too well or if you want more scripture for these things. God bless you!
My point is that literal, blood-lineage Hebrews do indeed have a special part to play in things. They have never owned the whole land from the Nile to the Euphrates.
No, Abram was put into a deep sleep when the covenant was made to signify that the covenant is fully on God. There is no requirement for Abram or his descendants to do anything.
They never owned the whole land? What about Joshua 23:43-45? "So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass."
This is correct, we are grafted into the tree, you reference Romans 11, rightly.
However, and mostly for the thread readers, and not as much for you, I implore you, exhort you, to remember, that we cannot be poisoned against the root, how easily are we grafted back out, and they grafted back in?
How much more the fullness when a Jew turns to Jesus Christ; to life.
"But Abram said, 'Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?' Then Abram said, 'Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!'"
"And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 'This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.' Then He brought him outside and said, 'Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.'"
The context implies that the descendants being referred to are those from his own body, meaning actual lineage.
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
I think in that verse Jesus was using rhetorical language, primarily to convict those he was speaking to of their sins... But, I think the part that says "the servant abideth not in the house for ever" is not speaking of the promised land (physical), but spiritually speaking of God's house (heavenly realm). "Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." They are still physically children of Abraham but spiritually children of the devil. There is physical and there is spiritual. There is a physical kingdom promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, and that is pointing to a greater spiritual truth. The spiritual kingdom (heaven) is for the spiritual descendants of Abraham. The physical kingdom extends from the Nile to the Euphrates, whereas the spiritual kingdom is without end. You can see this same typological symbolism all over the place, for instance the physical temple and a physical tabernacle in Jerusalem point to God's heavenly temple and throne.
However, no one should get a blank check to do whatever they want all the time, simply because they claim to be "God's chosen people."
Nor because their ancestors suffered persecution.
I think that's what gets me the most in relation to Jewish folk.
There is this whole sentiment revolving around needing to protect them against everything and everyone, and castrate any criticism as being unacceptable, because their ancestry suffered at the hands of the National Socialist party.
I do not hate Jews and I do not actively blame them despite some who clearly wish I would.
But when you cannot criticize them and they are treated as a protected class when they weren't the ones who went through it, there are legitimate questions that need to be brought.
I catch myself getting spun up. Sometimes I get spun up, only to realize this again. I consider these words to be the start and the end of the conversation;
Matthew 5:43-48
"43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
Do I want to be angry, censorious, judgemental; you know that my flesh desires it.
Matthew 16:24-25
"Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it."
What will I gain if I ruminate on it? I certainly will have a harder time being loving. In my opinion, the point the Lord was making was that he wants us to be perfect in love. That others would look and see that love and righteousness, and be convinced, that this love is supernatural, that Christ Jesus is the way and the truth and the life.
I heard a man once teach this: Consider for a moment the absolute power of Lord Jesus Christ. He had 72,000 angels, waiting for his command, they could have wiped out humanity, they could have destroyed the roman empire if he said to do it.
Instead, Jesus lowered himself even unto death. God, the Lord, Addonai, literally lowered himself to death, like a sheep, silent before his accusers, like a lamb led to slaughter. He did not protest, or attempt to save himself, but he suffered every almost ignominy humans can muster. Abandoned by his friends, falsely accused, imprisoned, beaten, made sport of, ripped open, bruised and mocked, and then, put to death without cause, he was sinless.
Brothers; Sisters: Hear me. We're not here for anything but his Kingdom, and we are here by his grace. He knows when peoples disappear, all have their appointed times and places. We all enjoy our entertainment from time to time, but we're not here for the gifts, but the giver.
I don't deride Jews anymore, because of what Jesus said about. Romans 11 is pretty clear as well on the matter as well.
It is my opinion, and I hope a gentle reminder; that if we don't abide in Christ, that is to listen to and live our lives in him, he will not abide in us. We have to love. When they hit us, we turn the cheek.
I implore and exhort those who read this. Benchmark yourselves, like the Apostle Paul asks the Corinthians to do in 2 Corinthians 13:5;
You have to die, every day. You have to say, I don't want to envision myself with that woman. You have to say, I don't want revenge, though my flesh desires it. You have to say, Please, bless them Father God, please forgive them, Father God. Please have mercy on them Jesus Christ, Lord God Almighty.
You have to be dying daily. Lord knows if all and each of our secrets were laid bare, we would all be ashamed before God, before Christ, and before Men. Denying yourself daily.
I am wide awake on the matter; I choose to deny myself. This isn't home. This isn't permanent. God is not God of the dead, but of the living; my citizenship isn't of the world anymore. Though I live here for now, I even enjoy a few things, a few luxuries.
Christians have to die to self, daily. Kill that anger, quench that frustration.
Bro, you don't have to let Jews or anybody take advantage of you and these verses don't give them permission. You don't have to get angry or hate to set boundaries, be kind but firm.
Noted, but I've lurked for a while, and I had another account at one point, but decided to delete it in a moment of frustration. I know the deal here. I want to promote the Kingdom, not how my incredibly foolish flesh wants to react.
I want to promote people ignoring, and denying the desires of the flesh.
James 1:20:
for the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
So much of what we think we know, we don't know by witness, nor by first hand, but by 3rd party, but by agitators, exaggerators, and people keen to stir the pot.
Current widely accepted Doctrines and teachings. Particularly though not exclusively from within the American Evangelical Camp. Has Christians convinced we need to rally around Israel and Jews. As preparation for the 2nd coming.
Yeah because eschatologically most modern churches are in the darbyism camp of premillennial dispensationalism which is NOT what Christians believed for about 1800 years before the publication of the Schofield reference Bible about 200 years ago.
Unfortunately that was the first Bible with footnotes and it was widely adopted by pastors and seminaries spreading this fringe view of the end times that is currently predominant today.
If modern Christians understood that all the destruction language in the book of Revelation was about the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father making all of his enemies his foots stool, we would be in a lot better place.
God wins down here. Only the wicked will be swept away just like in the days of Noah. Those that are in Christ, which is symbolic of the ark, will escape judgment.... Here on Earth.
True. That was the Puritans Bible of choice but it leaned the opposite direction towards Post millennialism. But it didn't dive into it as much and the Schofield reference Bible had significantly more footnotes and was rapidly widely adopted spreading this premillennial dispensationalism throughout evangelicalism.
Excellent points! Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13. That came to pass in 70 AD! That was a great tribulation for apostate Israel. An excellent verse by verse commentary on the book of Revelation was written by David Chilton - "The Days of Vengeance". BTW do you know who bankrolled the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible?
YEah, it depends on which Christians we are talking about. No-one cares for the fuzzy-wuzzy Christians who happen to live near the Sandy Place and look not Western, sadly.
In general, Muslims can be very reactionary, for example there are areas in NZ where it is not comfortable for a woman to show her hair in public. So that's a kinda sad development. Having a dog in the car can be problematic too, when attempting to park the car in those areas - one will get the car-roof banged on. So one learns to avoid those areas, which wasn't like that twenty years ago.
I noticed a stand-up Christian lot in my town who used to display an Israeli flag, because Christians and the Bible and all, and then suddenly they didn't - just a cross now. Since then, they are 'crusading' i.e. sending delgations to the Local Council, for the people and farmers in the area, in a good way, IMO.
Everybody’s going to have to wake up to this nonsense or we’re going to lose our homelands to these savages. Can’t wear your hair down in NZ? What kind nonsense is that!
Not to mention the pounding of a car roof if you have a dog in the back seat. Those are the actions of ignorant, superstitious savages who don't belong in civilized lands.
No wonder the Deep State wants to plant more of them among us.
Yeah, there shouldn't be a single person in Israel with any sort of Bills outstanding, considering WE Americans pay ALL of their Bills all year Round....
But also, to give the Christians something to gnaw on::
This makes me sick, and I have been hearing it from Evangelicals who are MAGA. I was even told this morning by one that I could not understand Jesus Christ unless I study the Torah, and then she told me to read some pastor from Missouri 23 books about it. I told her that the physical nation of Israel is no more different in holiness than rhode island, that they rejected the Messiah and when they did that, the Body of Christ is the one true people of God and all who are baptized in his name and confess his name as personal saviour are the new Jerusalem. She told me I was going to hell. This is a Trump supporter evangelical. It really is sad, frustrating, and crazy. Maybe it's time to take another social media hiatus, makes me want to build a hut in the woods and just pray, but I am not that disciplined. The Jews rejected their Messiah, and they are the ones who will pay with endless wars defending their empty throne, HIS Kingdom is alive in all who are baptized and declare him King of Kings.
I am not Evangelical Christian. But my brother-in-law is, and he is constantly swooning over Jews as God's Personally Hand-Picked Holy Chosen People, who can do no wrong.
This lady was/is indoctrinated by this preacher she reads, I asked her why I was going to hell, she said because I do not worship the one true God, because I do not believe he is the one true God of Israel and we (gentiles) were invited. I told her he was the God of all and when Israel rejected him as the Christ, the Messiah, he said bye Felicia, but still leaving the door open, (for awhile, the wedding etc) , and that we were the New Jerusalem, there is no new temple, HE is here, now in the Holy Spirit and then in the flesh and again in the flesh, so it could have been a healthy discussion but she condemned me immediatley. I know her too, she used to do my hair now and then.
When I was little, my Christian school’s Boy Scout troop painted the fence at a local synagogue. I thought well that’s nice. Everyone getting together and helping each other. And then I tried to remember when the synagogue members did anything for our church, or school, or scout troop, and came up empty. Huh. I said, well, I’ll just pay attention and it’ll happen at some point. It never did.
Then, I noticed (still a little kid here) that when we had to sell raffle tickets or candy to raise funds for our Christian school, my Jewish neighbors would never buy anything. They’d always politely and slightly awkwardly decline. These were people I’d see every day, that knew me from birth, that were the sweetest, nicest people in the whole world, so that “no, don’t want to give $1 to anything Christian” really stuck out like a sore thumb. I stopped ringing their doorbells in subsequent years.
So the idea that Jews don’t want to help with Christian issues was really cemented into my brain as a literal child. My Jewish neighbors treated me like gold, (brought gifts for me whenever they went on vacation, gave me birthday cards, constantly asked about my studies, rejoiced with my family when I won a prize, brought food when someone in the family was sick. They were GREAT) but didn’t care for my religion. I never once heard anything negative about Jews from Christians. After all, our leader is a Jewish carpenter.
Yes. But they do not consider him God in the flesh, they do not believe he was born of a virgin, and they don't believe that he was executed and resurrected.
I’m guessing by your one word answer you disagree with it, but asked because the verses I’ve seen used to support Trinitarianism don’t seem to rule it out (an example: [1]), and it does resolve some major conflicts with bringing the other two Abrahamics to understanding of Christ, while trinitarian concept doesn’t seem to add anything toward salvation.
If trinitarian doctrine doesn’t add anything toward salvation, and does create a stumbling block that prevents others from coming to understanding of Christ, which it almost did for me in my youth as well, shouldn’t it be avoided?
“It’s just one of God’s mysteries”, which is what I’ve always heard, is a bad explanation. It comes off as “I don’t have an answer, and am not going to indicate that I’ll get you one”, or “I don’t know and want to retain my air of authority”, or worse, which isn’t good.
“Air of Authority”? What an odd phrase.
None of this is to say anything is wrong or right, just that I’ve never understood why something that doesn’t appear to be involved in the process of salvation, isn’t crystal clear, is difficult or impossible to fully explain, and isn’t explicitly scriptural to the best of my knowledge, is so insistently put forth as a key part of coming into faith. The only place it seems somewhat relevant is in baptism, but even there the meaning of the verse could be something else.
I accept that I’m off the beaten dogmatic path with all this, but the path that we’ve been on has led us into widespread transgenderism, invasion, poisoning, and communism, which are all biblical curses and oppression of foreign gods, so everything is humbly and justifiably up for inspection as to what we did wrong. Only the scriptures and Adonai hold fast.
I didn’t mean to imply that they were. I meant to say that we are here, and every part of the path is how we got here, … “so everything is humbly and justifiably up for inspection”
"The forgotten Trinity" by Dr James White.
The trinity is most certainly not forgotten. It is spoken about often, consistently, and universally assumed to be true. Again, I am not saying it is false, but that in spite of having been preached to me my whole life, it neither makes total sense nor is scripturally explicit in either the New or Old Testaments, and that it is inarguably a stumbling block for many, many people in coming to Christ (Islam and Judaism both reject Christianity in no small part due to it)
If it takes an entire book to convince someone of it, when it should be simple and plainly stated enough for everyone to just understand it, and when it was not an explicitly stated understanding among the apostles at Jesus’ time, I feel like asking why we push it so hard is a very fair question. I don’t believe it’s the biggest issue out there, you are correct that child sacrifice and I would add - widespread flesh mutilation - both have to be stopped, I’m just saying it seems fair, and maybe even a good idea, to have it on the list for open-minded review.
Basically, when you get lost in the woods, you retrace your steps to try and get back out, and Trinitarian doctrine wasn’t around until .. the exact date is unclear but at least 150 years or so after Christ, and possibly Nicea or the 1200’s as an explicit doctrine.
I recommended that book because it's considered by most experts in the Protestant/reformed circles to be the best and most comprehensive book about the biblical base of the Trinity. Dr White is one of the leading authorities on textual transmission, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and biblical history. He is conducted literally hundreds of debates on the 7 of the Trinity alone.
If you want something simple there is literally animated cartoons that can explain the Trinity to children. Personally when I dive into a subject I like to know as much as I can not a cursory surface understanding.
Lots of Christian churches have been infiltrated by the jews, and fooled into believing that supporting the murderous nation of shitsrael is the christian thing to do. They killed Christ, and don't accept him to this day. Fuck them and all their fans.
Why? The Muslims regard Jesus as one of their prophets, even though both sides don’t agree with all aspects of His ministry. To the Jews, Jesus Christ was a threat to their establishment then and now.
Talk to any rabbi about Jesus Christ and listen to how they describe Him. Even today, I have not met one that would acknowledge anything positive about Him.
Because Jews spend their whole life denying the One and only Lord. So when our church and community takes a hit it’s victory for them. They want us gone so they can feel right.
Even here God separates the sheep from the goats. Love your enemies. Do good to them that spitefully use you. Basics. Yet when it comes to Jews those basic tenants of Jesus are lost and the ancient hate spreads like cancer.
Muhammad was originally trying to write for the Jews and be accepted by the Jews and seen as a prophet for them. When they rejected him he became very hostile towards the Jews. That's why his earlier writings are more friendly and then they become violent later on
There has been a lot of unnecessary downvotes here. I read every comment given a downvote and gave all of them an upvote because it was good discussion.
Guess because Jesus is mentioned in the Koran as well as a holy figure, but Judaism is only the Old Testament (+interpretations over the years) . There is no mention of Jesus in the Old Testament.
Jesus appears throughout the OT but not as "Jesus"
His birth, life and death plus much more are fortold there.
In fact the Old testament tells Jews that their Messiah would come before the second temple was destroyed. Well the second temple was destroyed in 70AD... Which is shortly after Jesus was crucified.
I'm not really religious, more agnostic. (not atheist, that's a religion on its own) Do have a Jewish ex GF, from what she told me Jesus is acknowledged in the Talmud, but not recognized as Messiah. I don't know.. I live my live basically on the same set of rules, been baptized because I had no say in that whatever, but the "believe" vs "verify" is a bit strong in me. Would I like there to be a heaven? Yes. Am I sure? No. Guess I'll find out when I hit the dirt.
Because Jews take advantage of Christians any and every way they can. They hide behind their "God's chosen people" nonsense, and Christians let them. Newsflash to my Christian brothers and sisters here. The Jews of the world today are NOT Hebrew. They are European, and they adopted the religion for the sole purpose of screwing Christians over. Wake up.
Don't get me wrong. I believe people have the right to believe whatever they want. However, no one should get a blank check to do whatever they want all the time, simply because they claim to be "God's chosen people."
Exactly. God's people are those in Christ. There is no Jew or gentile, only the church (those that are in Christ) and the world (everyone else including Jews that reject Him)
I think that point needs to be better fleshed out. I got piled on for sugguesting it and tbh I'm not entirely sure either way. There are verses in which Paul seems to allude to the literal, blood-lineage Hebrews (all 12 tribes, not just Judah), still have some special part to play in things. There are other verses though which seem to annul the difference between them and gentiles, as long as both parties believe in Christ.
Study the Abrahamic Covenant. God made an unconditional, eternal covenant with Abraham, and it can not be broken.
Yes but what I was leaning towards iirc, was that the Hebrews spear-headed the union between God and man (which was lost in Eden), and the gentiles followed suit, and we (who believe) are all now essentially one body. "Grafted into the vine"
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"...will make your descendents as numerous as the sands of the sea"
How would this be possible if it were limited to Hebrews only?
Are gentile believers in Christ not now descendents of Abraham, who believed God, since we too believe God?
All the answers you seek can be found in the book of Hebrews (A letter to the Jews in Rome) Author: unknown, some think Paul.
Synopsis: How the old law prophesied and set up perfectly thr New Law (or covenant) to move from physical things to spiritual things ie. Nation of Israel to the church.
And Galatians (A letter to the church in Galatia) written by Paul
Synopsis: Imploring them not to listen to the Jews who were trying to make them follow the old law because it's done.
I hope this helps! If you have any other questions I'd be happy to help with specific verses if you need.
Thank you fren. That is pretty much where I'm at with it. I've got another few questions out to someone else in this thread, waiting on response. Feel free to jump in if you'd like
https://greatawakening.win/p/17txR9tBUG/x/c/4ZDrsmiP5TZ
(that's just one of the replies in our discussion, you'll have to scroll around to find the start)
I see, you are not the one who is confused there in fact good on you for utilizing scripture and scripture only. The covenant to Abraham's seed was to everyone and is what translated into both the old and new law or covenant.
I've heard it said by a wise old preacher (now in heaven) that the entire bible's theme is: God came back.
By God blessing Abraham's seed he is saying that every nation on Earth (don't forget Ishmael) would have the opportunity to eternal life. This isn't some hidden Indian Jones relic we need to unpack here. And like you so adequately stated To the Jew first and also to the Greek or Jew and Gentile.
Peter meeting with Cornelius in Acts 10 after his vision is proof that God was reaching out to the Gentiles. But it was the Jew first because they were the first nation, the ones under the old law.
Paul in Ephesians 3:1 makes it know. His aim was to preach to the Gentiles.
So the old law was nailed to the cross "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second." Hebrews 8:7 because it couldn't save, it couldn't save because no one could keep it and the blood of bulls and goats did not wash sins away like the blood of Jesus does after baptism. Romans 6:1-5.
And this is where it ends. The promise to Abraham's seed is fulfilled in God taking care of His children in the old and the New covenant offering salvation to all who would submit to Him.
I really hope this makes sense you can kick me and ask me to clarify any points I didn't explain too well or if you want more scripture for these things. God bless you!
Btw found this while looking for something else
https://www.seekbibletruth.org/wp/2016/12/18/which-laws-were-nailed-to-the-cross/
My point is that literal, blood-lineage Hebrews do indeed have a special part to play in things. They have never owned the whole land from the Nile to the Euphrates.
Ah, gotcha. That is interesting.
Isn't there a verse somewhere which lays out the requirement they must meet in order to fully possess the promised land?
No, Abram was put into a deep sleep when the covenant was made to signify that the covenant is fully on God. There is no requirement for Abram or his descendants to do anything.
They never owned the whole land? What about Joshua 23:43-45? "So the Lord gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The Lord gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass."
Did Joshua 21:43-45 Fulfill the Abrahamic Land Covenant?
This is correct, we are grafted into the tree, you reference Romans 11, rightly.
However, and mostly for the thread readers, and not as much for you, I implore you, exhort you, to remember, that we cannot be poisoned against the root, how easily are we grafted back out, and they grafted back in?
How much more the fullness when a Jew turns to Jesus Christ; to life.
May God bless you.
I would also point out that the context -
"But Abram said, 'Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?' Then Abram said, 'Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!'"
"And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 'This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.' Then He brought him outside and said, 'Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.' And He said to him, 'So shall your descendants be.'"
The context implies that the descendants being referred to are those from his own body, meaning actual lineage.
How do we then consider John 8:34-40?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
I think in that verse Jesus was using rhetorical language, primarily to convict those he was speaking to of their sins... But, I think the part that says "the servant abideth not in the house for ever" is not speaking of the promised land (physical), but spiritually speaking of God's house (heavenly realm). "Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." They are still physically children of Abraham but spiritually children of the devil. There is physical and there is spiritual. There is a physical kingdom promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, and that is pointing to a greater spiritual truth. The spiritual kingdom (heaven) is for the spiritual descendants of Abraham. The physical kingdom extends from the Nile to the Euphrates, whereas the spiritual kingdom is without end. You can see this same typological symbolism all over the place, for instance the physical temple and a physical tabernacle in Jerusalem point to God's heavenly temple and throne.
Nor because their ancestors suffered persecution.
I think that's what gets me the most in relation to Jewish folk.
There is this whole sentiment revolving around needing to protect them against everything and everyone, and castrate any criticism as being unacceptable, because their ancestry suffered at the hands of the National Socialist party.
I do not hate Jews and I do not actively blame them despite some who clearly wish I would.
But when you cannot criticize them and they are treated as a protected class when they weren't the ones who went through it, there are legitimate questions that need to be brought.
I am a Christian.
I catch myself getting spun up. Sometimes I get spun up, only to realize this again. I consider these words to be the start and the end of the conversation;
Matthew 5:43-48
Do I want to be angry, censorious, judgemental; you know that my flesh desires it.
Matthew 16:24-25
What will I gain if I ruminate on it? I certainly will have a harder time being loving. In my opinion, the point the Lord was making was that he wants us to be perfect in love. That others would look and see that love and righteousness, and be convinced, that this love is supernatural, that Christ Jesus is the way and the truth and the life.
I heard a man once teach this: Consider for a moment the absolute power of Lord Jesus Christ. He had 72,000 angels, waiting for his command, they could have wiped out humanity, they could have destroyed the roman empire if he said to do it.
Instead, Jesus lowered himself even unto death. God, the Lord, Addonai, literally lowered himself to death, like a sheep, silent before his accusers, like a lamb led to slaughter. He did not protest, or attempt to save himself, but he suffered every almost ignominy humans can muster. Abandoned by his friends, falsely accused, imprisoned, beaten, made sport of, ripped open, bruised and mocked, and then, put to death without cause, he was sinless.
Brothers; Sisters: Hear me. We're not here for anything but his Kingdom, and we are here by his grace. He knows when peoples disappear, all have their appointed times and places. We all enjoy our entertainment from time to time, but we're not here for the gifts, but the giver.
I don't deride Jews anymore, because of what Jesus said about. Romans 11 is pretty clear as well on the matter as well.
It is my opinion, and I hope a gentle reminder; that if we don't abide in Christ, that is to listen to and live our lives in him, he will not abide in us. We have to love. When they hit us, we turn the cheek.
I implore and exhort those who read this. Benchmark yourselves, like the Apostle Paul asks the Corinthians to do in 2 Corinthians 13:5;
You have to die, every day. You have to say, I don't want to envision myself with that woman. You have to say, I don't want revenge, though my flesh desires it. You have to say, Please, bless them Father God, please forgive them, Father God. Please have mercy on them Jesus Christ, Lord God Almighty.
You have to be dying daily. Lord knows if all and each of our secrets were laid bare, we would all be ashamed before God, before Christ, and before Men. Denying yourself daily.
I am wide awake on the matter; I choose to deny myself. This isn't home. This isn't permanent. God is not God of the dead, but of the living; my citizenship isn't of the world anymore. Though I live here for now, I even enjoy a few things, a few luxuries.
Christians have to die to self, daily. Kill that anger, quench that frustration.
You have to die.
Bro, you don't have to let Jews or anybody take advantage of you and these verses don't give them permission. You don't have to get angry or hate to set boundaries, be kind but firm.
Noted, but I've lurked for a while, and I had another account at one point, but decided to delete it in a moment of frustration. I know the deal here. I want to promote the Kingdom, not how my incredibly foolish flesh wants to react.
I want to promote people ignoring, and denying the desires of the flesh.
James 1:20:
So much of what we think we know, we don't know by witness, nor by first hand, but by 3rd party, but by agitators, exaggerators, and people keen to stir the pot.
Tbf Insane some Christians are supporting people that are genociding other Christians in Palestine. Insane
Christian zionists are the biggest cucks on the planet. Religious voyeurs. Can’t think of any other sexually humiliating, religious themed insults.
Stop noticing these things 🙄
Current widely accepted Doctrines and teachings. Particularly though not exclusively from within the American Evangelical Camp. Has Christians convinced we need to rally around Israel and Jews. As preparation for the 2nd coming.
Yeah because eschatologically most modern churches are in the darbyism camp of premillennial dispensationalism which is NOT what Christians believed for about 1800 years before the publication of the Schofield reference Bible about 200 years ago.
Unfortunately that was the first Bible with footnotes and it was widely adopted by pastors and seminaries spreading this fringe view of the end times that is currently predominant today.
If modern Christians understood that all the destruction language in the book of Revelation was about the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD and Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father making all of his enemies his foots stool, we would be in a lot better place.
God wins down here. Only the wicked will be swept away just like in the days of Noah. Those that are in Christ, which is symbolic of the ark, will escape judgment.... Here on Earth.
May guess you’ve been listening to John Rich
Nope. Couldn't even tell you who that is.
Actually, the first bible with footnotes was The Geneva Bible. 🤷🏻
True. That was the Puritans Bible of choice but it leaned the opposite direction towards Post millennialism. But it didn't dive into it as much and the Schofield reference Bible had significantly more footnotes and was rapidly widely adopted spreading this premillennial dispensationalism throughout evangelicalism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._I._Scofield#:~:text=Scofield's%20correspondence%20Bible%20study%20course,1909%20by%20Oxford%20University%20Press.
I do not like dispensationalism.
Big bad.
You may find this interesting: https://anotepad.com/note/read/mnsyg66a
Excellent points! Jesus prophesied the destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13. That came to pass in 70 AD! That was a great tribulation for apostate Israel. An excellent verse by verse commentary on the book of Revelation was written by David Chilton - "The Days of Vengeance". BTW do you know who bankrolled the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible?
You can actually make the argument from the Old testament alone.
Isaiah 53 & Daniel 9:24-27
YEah, it depends on which Christians we are talking about. No-one cares for the fuzzy-wuzzy Christians who happen to live near the Sandy Place and look not Western, sadly.
In general, Muslims can be very reactionary, for example there are areas in NZ where it is not comfortable for a woman to show her hair in public. So that's a kinda sad development. Having a dog in the car can be problematic too, when attempting to park the car in those areas - one will get the car-roof banged on. So one learns to avoid those areas, which wasn't like that twenty years ago.
I noticed a stand-up Christian lot in my town who used to display an Israeli flag, because Christians and the Bible and all, and then suddenly they didn't - just a cross now. Since then, they are 'crusading' i.e. sending delgations to the Local Council, for the people and farmers in the area, in a good way, IMO.
Everybody’s going to have to wake up to this nonsense or we’re going to lose our homelands to these savages. Can’t wear your hair down in NZ? What kind nonsense is that!
Not to mention the pounding of a car roof if you have a dog in the back seat. Those are the actions of ignorant, superstitious savages who don't belong in civilized lands.
No wonder the Deep State wants to plant more of them among us.
IT's just that the ladies get spat on if they don't. It's only in some suburbs.
Why do you give them tolerance when you receive none in return?
Nah, one just doesn't return to the businesses in those areas.
Yeah, there shouldn't be a single person in Israel with any sort of Bills outstanding, considering WE Americans pay ALL of their Bills all year Round....
But also, to give the Christians something to gnaw on::
https://greatawakening.win/p/15HvL9nJRo/1879-letter-from-baruch-levy-to-/c/
It's just one paragraph, but oh boy does it say one hell of a lot.....
https://ia601704.us.archive.org/11/items/1879-letter-from-baruch-levy-to-karl-marx/1879%20letter%20from%20Baruch%20Levy%20to%20Karl%20Marx_.pdf
This makes me sick, and I have been hearing it from Evangelicals who are MAGA. I was even told this morning by one that I could not understand Jesus Christ unless I study the Torah, and then she told me to read some pastor from Missouri 23 books about it. I told her that the physical nation of Israel is no more different in holiness than rhode island, that they rejected the Messiah and when they did that, the Body of Christ is the one true people of God and all who are baptized in his name and confess his name as personal saviour are the new Jerusalem. She told me I was going to hell. This is a Trump supporter evangelical. It really is sad, frustrating, and crazy. Maybe it's time to take another social media hiatus, makes me want to build a hut in the woods and just pray, but I am not that disciplined. The Jews rejected their Messiah, and they are the ones who will pay with endless wars defending their empty throne, HIS Kingdom is alive in all who are baptized and declare him King of Kings.
I am not Evangelical Christian. But my brother-in-law is, and he is constantly swooning over Jews as God's Personally Hand-Picked Holy Chosen People, who can do no wrong.
He's dumb in other ways, too.
This lady was/is indoctrinated by this preacher she reads, I asked her why I was going to hell, she said because I do not worship the one true God, because I do not believe he is the one true God of Israel and we (gentiles) were invited. I told her he was the God of all and when Israel rejected him as the Christ, the Messiah, he said bye Felicia, but still leaving the door open, (for awhile, the wedding etc) , and that we were the New Jerusalem, there is no new temple, HE is here, now in the Holy Spirit and then in the flesh and again in the flesh, so it could have been a healthy discussion but she condemned me immediatley. I know her too, she used to do my hair now and then.
When I was little, my Christian school’s Boy Scout troop painted the fence at a local synagogue. I thought well that’s nice. Everyone getting together and helping each other. And then I tried to remember when the synagogue members did anything for our church, or school, or scout troop, and came up empty. Huh. I said, well, I’ll just pay attention and it’ll happen at some point. It never did.
Then, I noticed (still a little kid here) that when we had to sell raffle tickets or candy to raise funds for our Christian school, my Jewish neighbors would never buy anything. They’d always politely and slightly awkwardly decline. These were people I’d see every day, that knew me from birth, that were the sweetest, nicest people in the whole world, so that “no, don’t want to give $1 to anything Christian” really stuck out like a sore thumb. I stopped ringing their doorbells in subsequent years.
So the idea that Jews don’t want to help with Christian issues was really cemented into my brain as a literal child. My Jewish neighbors treated me like gold, (brought gifts for me whenever they went on vacation, gave me birthday cards, constantly asked about my studies, rejoiced with my family when I won a prize, brought food when someone in the family was sick. They were GREAT) but didn’t care for my religion. I never once heard anything negative about Jews from Christians. After all, our leader is a Jewish carpenter.
Muslims regard Jesus Christ as a prophet.
Yes. But they do not consider him God in the flesh, they do not believe he was born of a virgin, and they don't believe that he was executed and resurrected.
Jews don't believe Jesus was God in the flesh, or that He was born of a virgin or the resurrection. They do believe in the execution part....
You mean Judaism doesn't teach.
Most of the apostles and Jesus were Jews.
Messianic Jews Believe all those things
You familiar with Unitarianism?
Yes
Downvotes aren’t mine.
I’m guessing by your one word answer you disagree with it, but asked because the verses I’ve seen used to support Trinitarianism don’t seem to rule it out (an example: [1]), and it does resolve some major conflicts with bringing the other two Abrahamics to understanding of Christ, while trinitarian concept doesn’t seem to add anything toward salvation.
If trinitarian doctrine doesn’t add anything toward salvation, and does create a stumbling block that prevents others from coming to understanding of Christ, which it almost did for me in my youth as well, shouldn’t it be avoided?
“It’s just one of God’s mysteries”, which is what I’ve always heard, is a bad explanation. It comes off as “I don’t have an answer, and am not going to indicate that I’ll get you one”, or “I don’t know and want to retain my air of authority”, or worse, which isn’t good.
“Air of Authority”? What an odd phrase.
None of this is to say anything is wrong or right, just that I’ve never understood why something that doesn’t appear to be involved in the process of salvation, isn’t crystal clear, is difficult or impossible to fully explain, and isn’t explicitly scriptural to the best of my knowledge, is so insistently put forth as a key part of coming into faith. The only place it seems somewhat relevant is in baptism, but even there the meaning of the verse could be something else.
u/solarsavior
I accept that I’m off the beaten dogmatic path with all this, but the path that we’ve been on has led us into widespread transgenderism, invasion, poisoning, and communism, which are all biblical curses and oppression of foreign gods, so everything is humbly and justifiably up for inspection as to what we did wrong. Only the scriptures and Adonai hold fast.
[1] https://www.crossway.org/articles/10-key-bible-verses-on-the-trinity/
Those curses aren't from trinitarianism. They're from slaughtering / sacrificing children aka abortion.
God curses a nation that sheds innocent blood.
Yeah the Trinity is a difficult concept. That's because we have a 3 lb brain trying to understand an infinite God.
I recommend the book "They forgotten Trinity" by Dr James White.
I didn’t mean to imply that they were. I meant to say that we are here, and every part of the path is how we got here, … “so everything is humbly and justifiably up for inspection”
The trinity is most certainly not forgotten. It is spoken about often, consistently, and universally assumed to be true. Again, I am not saying it is false, but that in spite of having been preached to me my whole life, it neither makes total sense nor is scripturally explicit in either the New or Old Testaments, and that it is inarguably a stumbling block for many, many people in coming to Christ (Islam and Judaism both reject Christianity in no small part due to it)
If it takes an entire book to convince someone of it, when it should be simple and plainly stated enough for everyone to just understand it, and when it was not an explicitly stated understanding among the apostles at Jesus’ time, I feel like asking why we push it so hard is a very fair question. I don’t believe it’s the biggest issue out there, you are correct that child sacrifice and I would add - widespread flesh mutilation - both have to be stopped, I’m just saying it seems fair, and maybe even a good idea, to have it on the list for open-minded review.
Basically, when you get lost in the woods, you retrace your steps to try and get back out, and Trinitarian doctrine wasn’t around until .. the exact date is unclear but at least 150 years or so after Christ, and possibly Nicea or the 1200’s as an explicit doctrine.
Just looking for breadcrumbs.
Did you just judge a book by its cover?
I recommended that book because it's considered by most experts in the Protestant/reformed circles to be the best and most comprehensive book about the biblical base of the Trinity. Dr White is one of the leading authorities on textual transmission, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, and biblical history. He is conducted literally hundreds of debates on the 7 of the Trinity alone.
If you want something simple there is literally animated cartoons that can explain the Trinity to children. Personally when I dive into a subject I like to know as much as I can not a cursory surface understanding.
True, but ask them what learnings they took from Jesus the ""prophet"" and they won't be able to answer.
Mohammed just said that so he could get as many new members into his rapist bandit cult as possible.
I don't support people who rejected Jesus Christ except to evangelize them in hope they'll finally accept him. The chosen are those who accept Christ.
Lots of Christian churches have been infiltrated by the jews, and fooled into believing that supporting the murderous nation of shitsrael is the christian thing to do. They killed Christ, and don't accept him to this day. Fuck them and all their fans.
Why? The Muslims regard Jesus as one of their prophets, even though both sides don’t agree with all aspects of His ministry. To the Jews, Jesus Christ was a threat to their establishment then and now.
Every religion recognizes Jesus in some fashion
Talk to any rabbi about Jesus Christ and listen to how they describe Him. Even today, I have not met one that would acknowledge anything positive about Him.
Always has been.
Because Jews spend their whole life denying the One and only Lord. So when our church and community takes a hit it’s victory for them. They want us gone so they can feel right.
Stop defending anti Christian systems.
Even here God separates the sheep from the goats. Love your enemies. Do good to them that spitefully use you. Basics. Yet when it comes to Jews those basic tenants of Jesus are lost and the ancient hate spreads like cancer.
Because Christian-bashing is in fashion at the moment..
Muhammad was originally trying to write for the Jews and be accepted by the Jews and seen as a prophet for them. When they rejected him he became very hostile towards the Jews. That's why his earlier writings are more friendly and then they become violent later on
Why? Jews are dicks?
There has been a lot of unnecessary downvotes here. I read every comment given a downvote and gave all of them an upvote because it was good discussion.
someone is sour
Jews are extremely charitable.
only the obedient drones obeying their (m)astors in their 501c3 government puppet organizations.
Guess because Jesus is mentioned in the Koran as well as a holy figure, but Judaism is only the Old Testament (+interpretations over the years) . There is no mention of Jesus in the Old Testament.
Jesus appears throughout the OT but not as "Jesus"
His birth, life and death plus much more are fortold there.
In fact the Old testament tells Jews that their Messiah would come before the second temple was destroyed. Well the second temple was destroyed in 70AD... Which is shortly after Jesus was crucified.
I'm not really religious, more agnostic. (not atheist, that's a religion on its own) Do have a Jewish ex GF, from what she told me Jesus is acknowledged in the Talmud, but not recognized as Messiah. I don't know.. I live my live basically on the same set of rules, been baptized because I had no say in that whatever, but the "believe" vs "verify" is a bit strong in me. Would I like there to be a heaven? Yes. Am I sure? No. Guess I'll find out when I hit the dirt.