REVEALED: The True Birthday Of Jesus | WLT Report
Discover the surprising evidence and scholarly insights that suggest Jesus might have been born on September 11, 3 B.C., rather than the traditional December 25. Uncover the significant implications of this date linked to ancient Jewish celebrations and pr...
Who cares about the actual date he was born. The fact it's celebrated on Dec. 25th is not relevant. We celebrate the fact that he was born, period. He was born and lived a sinless life, he was crucified and resurrected and sits at the right hand of the Father. His birth is significant but not nearly as much as His death. So quit squabbling over trivial stuff and just focus on where He is now.
God's birth is important, if you let the enemy lie on the truth then he'll be able to dictate to the world about Jesus in a false manner that's not even true. If the Devil can convince people he doesn't exist, imagine what he could do if no one bothered to refute his false claims.
Yes, but ...
Advertised as in title: "The True Birthday of Jesus"
...
Disclaimer in first sentence: "Jesus might have been born ..."
Can we all demand you re-read your own source material so that the "truth" can be revealed, which is the author explicitly states in the 1st sentence that they are guessing?
Not my article, but I am saying that every little thing matters whether good or evil as everything has a reason why it's so.
The reason why I posted this article is because for a special day like this, Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. I believe it was around September or October, basically it starts conversation too as I also learned crucial information.
It's a long thread from what I posted, you have to scroll down where he quotes Scripture. A few words will not give you the whole picture, regardless of what source you would read from.
It's fascinating how much interest your post has generated, also the passion with which people will defend their position on a religious issue like this. I myself tend to agree with many points in the article. I started suspecting that Jesus couldn't have been born in December when I realized shepherds don't sleep outside with their flocks in the dead of winter, even in the Middle East. It was probably in September for all the reasons the author suggests.
There is also an issue with the three days and nights in the grave before Jesus' resurrection. In order for there to be three full days and three full nights, Jesus would have to have been crucified on a Wednesday, which means there would have been two sabbaths that week, a passover and a regular weekly sabbath.
Sadly the church has lied to us, Jesus was clear 3 days and 3 nights not just 3 day but a full 72 hours. We have it recorded that He was into the tomb at sundown and we know He was seen risen in the early morning of Day 1 of the week - which starts at sundown on 7th day [Saturday]
Jesus was clear the church decided and has continued to obfuscate - there was No Good Friday! Why did they do this?
As for 25th December and the Pagan celebration of Mythas the return of the sun god - its like saying to your true love I don't know what day you were born but I want to keep celebrating on the birthday of my old lover because I cannot be bother to change or even enquire when your birthday is. Your new true love will not be impressed.
Now substitute satan for old lover and Jesus for true love!
You might have well just said Jesus was 5'11 instead of 5'10.
You might have well just said Jesus had attached earlobes instead of separated earlobes.
You might have well just said Jesus was left handed instead of right handed, or short hair instead of long hair, or an innie belly button instead of an outie.
In other words, it makes absolutely zero difference what day Jesus was born on. It's as significant as everything else mentioned above.
You're here preaching like we have to get this right or something bad happens, muh "if you let the enemy lie on the truth" whatever that means.
In reality, it doesn't matter. And your source material has a disclaimer in the first sentence of "might", as in they're guessing.
In unrelated news, George Washington's birthday was Feb 22 and people have the gall celebrate it every third Monday in February. Imagine that, celebrating a birthday on a day that's not actually his birthday. He has to be rolling in his grave.
What that means if you let the enemy do what he wants, essentially it's like letting yourself to be a victim without any pushback which thus makes you irrelevant to speak up for what's right if you let them do it.
It's like your argument in a nutshell is saying that that if a liberal doesn't see the truth and thinks Donald Trump should be in prison because of TDS then that should be the reality for everyone else regardless of secondhand opinion.
It's also not just the article itself people in the comment section are saying the same or similar thing regarding the dates, if you don't care about the things considered small or insignificant.
Then you'll be no better than the left who started small on their lunacy, and eventually turned it in the hell it became today because no else cared as they want to screw this nation over.
(When Washington was born the date was called February 11 because Britain had not adopted the Gregorian calendar. After the adoption, in Washington's adulthood his birthdate was called February 11 Old Style and February 22 New Style. It is correct that it's the same solar date as our current February 22. So truth does matter ....)
If it's February 11 as you state, and his birthday is celebrated on the 3rd Monday of February, then his birthday is still not being celebrated on the actual day of his birth, only now it's much father away from the date it is actually celebrated.
There is no date you can pick where his birthday gets celebrated on a day that isn't actually his birth.
The point is that when people celebrate your birthday on a day that isn't actually your birthday, it isn't the end of the world. The celebration is what matters, not the exact date.
We need to know these things, thank you for letting us know. God bless
Howdy Mrs. Ippeas, thank you for carrying on the account!
I don't think Ernest Martin was correct about Sep 11, because he is overreliant on constellations and underreliant on careful reading of Josephus. I see you've put some stuff forward on it so I might comment on it briefly but I don't want to bore you.
You're welcome friend, Merry Christmas and blessings to you!
Thank you, same to you. Amen.
100% agree.
God's birth is crucial, and it's essensial that we protect the truth about it. If we allow the enemy to distort the truth, he can mislead the world about who Jesus really is. Just like the Devil tries to convince people that he doesn't exist, imagine what he could do if no one stood up to correct his false narrtives about Jesus. It's important to recognize how cultural traditons sometimes stray from the true message of Christianity. For example, the evergreen tree, a symbol widley used in Christmas celebrations, doesn't actually have any historical or biblical roots in Israel. In fact, evergreens don't even grow in the region of Israel where Jesus was born. The tree has been adopted over time through various traditions, but it’s important to consider how these traditons can sometimes obscure the real meaning of Christmas.
Santa Claus, too, is another example of how modern commericalized traditions have overshadowed the true message of Jesus' birth. While they may seem harmless or fun, they can sometimes divert our focus away from the reason we celebrate Christmas in the first place:the birth of our Savior. These symbols, though they seem innocent, can lead people to misunderstand or forget the true significance of the holiday. By sticking to the truth of who Jesus is and why He came to Earth, we can preserve the integrity of the Christian faith and avoid getting caught up in traditons that, while popular, don’t align with the true message of Christianity.
Unfortunately, it appears people just giving up and saying "whatever" when someone BS's us (satan or whoever) is what's gotten us into the mess we're in right now. Let them get away with enough "truth distortions" over a long enough time period and look at what sort of nefarious crap they pull.
If you don't believe me, do the math and realize we've had about 2500 abortions PER DAY happening in the US for way too long, not aware of how badly our government was falsely taxing us into deciding between giving up children or debt slavery.
Gods "birth"? God is and always has been.
As long as everyone understands this is about the 17th different 'actual birthday' of Jesus that scholars have suggested
The September 11th thing seems a little too perfect IMHO
Completely true fren. There are many candidates for the timing of His birth. All of them have good points, but they also have problems upon closer examination. But you are correct, the timing is of far less importance than the fact that it happened - whatever date one picks.
I've done the examination and I find no problems with Sat 6 Oct 4 BC at 3 a.m. (Sabbath 15 Tishri 3758). Would be interested in any problems you can share.
Dating from that time period in large part must rely on historical records from the period to give an approximate timeline of when events occurred. As far as the 4BCE date for the Master's birth, one of the most glaring discrepancies revolves around the date of Herod the Great's death which is mentioned in the Gospels. Most scholarship, both secular and theological, is in agreement that Herod the Great died in March or April of 4BCE. His son, Herod Archelaus took over rulership after his father's death by order of Augustus in 4BCE - but not as king. Archelaus was given authority under a tetrarchy. He was just as cruel as his father and Rome did not want a repeat of Herod the Great's reign. There is some debate involving a later date of 1BCE for the death of Herod the Great, but that opinion does not line up with other Roman records and is more of an outlier.
Therefore, given that Herod died some time in early 4BCE, the date of Sept of that same year for the birth of the Master has some problems. But as I already stated, it is difficult to develop a chronology of the time period partially because the calendar has gone through some changes over the centuries, making it difficult to pinpoint with any degree of certainty as to the exact date of events during the Second Temple period. Astronomical dating also runs into that same calendar dating problem. Accuracy linked to astronomical dating is problematic and must be taken with a grain of salt.
Definitely.
IMHO never use BCE or CE.
Before Common Era / Common Era
BC / AD
Before Christ / Anno Domini “In the Year of our Lord”
[They] are always trying to blot out His Name.
Understood. I am just used to the language used in scholarship. The same thing as using metric instead of American standard measurements. My brain doesn't want to refigure the calculations. But I get your point.
Old habits are like Bruce Willis.
LOL
Both my wife and I had to chuckle there, thank you very much
Yep I would have been cool with putting both in Latin or booth in English but the attempt to erase Christ altogether is garbage
Not actually most scholarship. Herod put down a rebellion at the time of a lunar eclipse in March of 4 BC, and Archelaus put down a rebellion at a Passover, and scholars are divided over whether to put these 1 or 13 months apart. But if you simply read all that Josephus crams in between these two events, I think you will agree with his primary translator, William Whiston, who explains in an appendix dissertation that the noted Passover could not have been in 4 BC but was in 3 BC, and thus there is no reason to hasten Herod's death in spring. I haven't seen anyone with the 1-month claim successfully accommodate all of Josephus's events into that timeframe. Further, it is believed that one of the two unnamed fasts in the Roll of Fasts refers to Herod's death, but these do not occur in spring. It is more probable that Herod died in fall of 4 BC and the fast refers to Archelaus's formal weeklong honorary funeral of Herod, which happened later after some preparation. Just read the appropriate portion of Josephus in detail, or the Whiston dissertation on the subject.
Note that Archelaus showily declined the name of king, then put down the Passover rebellion, then sailed to Rome before Pentecost (when Varus was in Jerusalem) where he was named ethnarch (not tetrarch). That title was more likely given in 3 BC than 4 BC. However, as with everyone, the reign begins from the death of the father in 4 BC, and counted 10 years inclusive until Archelaus's famously being deposed in 6 AD.
Add: Note that the primary 1-month compression scheme is Emil Schurer 1898, which is, as I noted, unreasonably tight compared to the text of Josephus. Schurer also cannot accept that Herod's 37 years were counted inclusively from Tishri of 40 BC (after which he was made king) to Tishri of 4 BC (after which he died), because Schurer thought he died in Mar-Apr of 4 BC. Therefore Schurer put forward a bogus alternate reckoning of the 37 years that didn't reflect the Hebrew counting methods of the time (as documented separately by Edwin Thiele and Rick Lanser).
You are right that the 1 BC eclipse is not the correct one, though it was championed by Florian Reiss and others in a minority group and still has proponents today.
Upvote for using BC/AD. I’m so sick of this BCE BS!
I will have to examine this further. Correction: Archelaus was ethnarchic. The tetrarchy was with his brothers. Thank you.
FYI: There are several minor Jewish fasts that occur throughout the year. Some are mentioned in Zechariah that were observed during the Second Temple period. The only exception is the fast of Tammuz which marked the Roman siege. All the others noted by the prophet are linked to the Babylonian siege and destruction. The fast of Gedaliah is in the fall, the tenth of Tevet is in the winter, the Fast of Ester is in the spring, and the ninth of Av is in the summer. There is also a traditional fast taken by some Jews prior to Passover - the fast of the firstborn. This particular fast may factor in to the dating.
Here is some work that contends the spring 4BCE dating of Herod's death with the receipts. I will leave it for your examination. IMO, it reconciles many points of contention. Not sure if you are familiar with this or not. There is too much to write about in a reply. But I thank you for your perspective and your reasons for them. You obviously have looked into this topic in great depth - and that is to be acknowledged. So I believe this is right up your ally given your propensity to sink your teeth into a topic.
Merry Christmas.
The Reign of Herod the Great
Thanks Mac! Will do. Merry Christmas (and happy Hanukkah).
Here is one of the pieces of my puzzle. For more, search the Christianity forum for the word "Chronology".
You are most welcome fren. Chanukhah or Christmas greetings, I will take both. Thanks for the link.
The link I sent you goes into great depth on chronology and reckoning of dates. Enjoy. It will definitely keep you busy. LOL.
Actually I guess I should copy notes here so I have them bookmarked.
Passover rebellion: The author, Charles D. Davis, has done lots of work, but fixates on a couple points that he thinks are telling. First, he follows Schurer on putting the Passover rebellion against Archelaus in 4 BC instead of 3 BC, even though he rejects Schurer's compression of events into one month; he expands that passage backwards instead of forwards as if a 3 BC rebellion isn't even being considered. So his reason for holding to a 4 BC rebellion is from a source that he and I both discount; he recognizes the exchange of letters to Rome totally excludes Schurer on this point (though Schurer got other points right).
Eclipse: He uses this to follow what he acknowledges to be a minority (against Steinmann) in interpreting the eclipse passage in Josephus. Now for me it's always been obvious that Josephus is describing the end of the priesthood of Matthias and the beginning of Joazar; that this compels him to backtrack "during" that priesthood to mention another priest for a day, Joseph, during "the fast" that obviously means Atonement; and that he then returns to the removal of Matthias, at which time the eclipse happened. But this minority apparently interpreted "But Herod deprived" as "Herod then deprived" as if it isn't a return to the main narrative, and "that very night" (after the removal) as "that same night" (as if referring to the other night mentioned offhand), and created a narrative in which the fast is tied to the eclipse. This allows him to move the removal somewhat earlier than the eclipse of 13 Mar 4 BC, which allows him to pad the months needed to match Josephus's narrative rather than Schurer's construction. The statement "during the winter months of 5/4 B.C. there were no lunar eclipses" seems incorrect since he counted Adar as winter during which the 13 Mar eclipse occurred.
Joseph's priesthood: Happened "that very day which the Jews observed as a fast", which obviously refers to The Fast, Atonement, because it's the annual fast that everyone observes (cf. Acts 27:9 putting The Fast in fall). But by tying this fast to the day before or after the eclipse, he thinks he can force the eclipse to be Nisan 14 (thus 23 Mar 5 BC), which is a minor fast. Whiston reports that this event also appears in Mishna and Talmud, and is tied to the stricture of preventing the high priest from sleep for Day of Atonement only. The idea that Matthias had some high officiation to do as to a fast doesn't apply to Nisan 14, when the temple would be filled with Passover lambs (some eating during the day, and those who fasted on that day breaking the fast that evening); it applies to Atonement, when he has very specific complex duties that only the high priest can perform. So the whole idea that we must use the fast as tying it to the eclipse, which then wrests the eclipse away from the flow of the narrative about Matthias's priesthood ending, fails to match the evidence (which is why Steinmann and the majority reject it).
Herod at Jericho: He also assumes that the site of this removal, Jericho, must be Herod's winter palace, namely that he is only there in winter. Interestingly, he believes that Herod's later return to Jericho from Callirrhoe happened in Adar II, but the 13 Mar eclipse was in Adar also, so nothing prevents it from being the one that occurred the very night Herod deposed Matthias. (Perhaps he might object that Herod would not have returned to Jericho later in the year, but that is an unstated proposition and it's unclear to me why this hypothetical would be impossible.)
Varus succeeding Saturninus: He emphasizes that this happened in the year 7-6 BC based on coin evidence, and Josephus's first mention of Varus is with Antipater's presumptive appearance before Herod, which he puts in late 5 BC. He regards this as a discrepancy, but it would be simple to hold that Varus had previously succeeded Saturninus but his appearance before Herod is the first time he is mentioned. It seems this is answered by his possible reading "Varus (who was Saturninus' successor) was in Jerusalem".
Sounds like by ignoring Whiston's chronology with the eclipse in 4 BC and the Passover rebellion in 3 BC (though interest in it has been revived by Hoehner, Lanser, etc.), he's making additional special pleadings by reference to Jericho being a "winter" residence and the "fast" of Joseph being useful for dating the eclipse rather than a reference to Atonement as it is in the Mishna.
How long after Christ's death did Herod die? That would give a much clearer idea of which year Christ was born.
Herod the Great died in 4BCE after the Master's birth, many years before the Master's crucifixion and ascension. It can be confusing because there were many Herods. It is the family sir name in a sense - the Herodians. It is not a first name like it is in the West. Many cultures give the family name first and then the personal name - like Herod Antipas or Herod Philip.
The family fled to Egypt by order of an angel because Herod the Great was in pursuit and wanted to kill the child. The family remained in Egypt until another angel told the family it was safe to return. My understanding is that the family had left Bethlehem, the place of the Master's birth, and moved back to Nazareth where they lived in a house according to the text. They had many family members there. Many of them were descendants of David that lived in the area. Herod was so paranoid about legitimate rivals to his rule that he basically went after all descendants of the House of David. That is why these families settled near the Galilee away from Herod's grasp. The only reason the holy family traveled to Bethlehem was due to the census. They did not remain there and returned to their hometown. Bethlehem was the ancient home of the House of David. Staying there would have been dangerous for anyone of the Davidic line.
A careful reading of the Gospel text in Greek says that when they received the order to flee, Jesus was no longer an infant, but a "child." So this fact also gives credence to an earlier date for the Master's birth - somewhere around 7-6 BCE. But, I have no doubt there are other opinions out there as to the date. This is my position based upon my own research and the research of others more familiar with the Greek and historical records from the time including early Church traditions from the period. The important thing to remember is that it occurred, regardless of when it happened. Merry Christmas.
See? The text is: "He sent them to Bethlehem .... And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt." It doesn't say "long after the wise men were departed and Joseph's family went to Nazareth for awhile", where Herod could not have found them. It doesn't say the wise men went to Nazareth. The reason the angel told them to leave was that they were in Bethlehem and that was where Herod would search. Kinda silly to flee Nazareth for Egypt when there was no threat in Nazareth, right?
Much has been made of the word "house" Matt. 2:11 as if it contradicts something else in the text, but it doesn't. The reason for emphasizing the word "house" was to perpetuate the idea that Jesus was nearly two when the wise men arrived, but that is contradictory to the text where Luke 2 implies they left Jerusalem for Nazareth right after Jesus's 40th day.
Much has been made of the word "child" Matt. 2:8 as if it contradicts something else in the text, but it doesn't. In fact all the babies from 0 to 2 years old were called "children" Matt. 2:16 with the same word. The other word, which is translated "babe", is used in 2 Tim. 3:15 of Timothy when he first knew the Scriptures. Again this is to age Jesus beyond the 40th day.
The dates of 7-6 are also based on astrological signs such as conjunctions of planets. Reading the plain text of Matthew and Luke, and supplementing with the plain text of Josephus, gives a much tighter chronology. The wise men found Jesus in Bethlehem in the same brief stayover in which he was born, not in some separate stayover that had no reason, nor for some 2-year stayover. I honestly don't see anyone trying to reconcile and reinterpret these plain passages so as to successfully explain away the tight facts.
It does say in Luke that after they did all that was required by the law, they returned to Nazareth. This was their hometown and where their family was. They went to Bethlehem because of the census and remained there until they completed Jesus' presentation at the Temple - which would have been His redemption as a first born son. 40 days for a boy. Until a child is one month old, they are not fully counted yet - they are kind of in a no man's land. I suppose because of infant mortality. At 40 days a child is past the one month period and He would have been "officially" named and his redemption price given to the priest. The Magi came to Bethlehem. Luke does not include the events Matthew speaks of, the flight to Egypt, the visit of the Magi, or a prolonged stay in Bethlehem. It would reasonable to think that Joseph had extended family ties in Bethlehem which would explain why they were in a house. They most certainly would have not remained in a stable.
I will admit that many scholars view the Gospels of Matthew and Luke as complementary rather than strictly chronological, each emphasizing different theological themes. The reconciliation of these timelines is often addressed by suggesting that Luke summarizes events, possibly omitting the Egypt episode, or that the families’ movements involved multiple returns. I am always open to differences of interpretation and am willing to concede to your point. I have not drilled down as far on this topic as obviously you have, in great detail I might add. So I may stand corrected here. I am always in learning mode. Thank you.
As far as the reference in Timothy. A child's formal education in the Torah begins at age 3. That is more than likely the age Paul was referring to - meaning Timothy's mother was being a good parent in starting his education young.
As far as a birth year. I am also open. I don't think a 6-7 BC year date can be fixed in stone either. It could be around 5 BC. As I have stated, I am less fixated on on a date of when it happened versus the fact that it did happen and He was born. That truly is the important part. Archeological and historic dating of the period is not easy and there is disagreement the further one goes back in time. Reconciling events on a rigid timeline based upon historical material is a major endeavor. So I personally hold it loosely.
In my comment that you are replying to I stated, "my understanding." My understanding of something can change in the face of additional information. I was not stating it as fact, but my understanding of what I know. Which is always increasing. So again, thank you for clarifying something where I may have some holes in my understanding. Again Merry Christmas.
Keep going......not nearly as much as His resurrection!!
Boom.
Both of which were prophesied for over a millennia.
The proof no one can deny. It’s all talk until you walk out of the grave.
and nowhere does scripture say to honor his birth, but his death....yes
His death being on Passover.
Where death passes over the faithful.
Life in abundance.
This. Datefagging Jesus birthday is completely pointless. That wasn't his reason for being here. And he's not "coming back" either, because he has been here the whole time with us.
Clickb8
His death is significant, but not nearly as much as His resurrection.
Dec 25 is a pagan holiday.
Wedding rings are pagan also. Easter is a pagan fertility god worship hence the rabbits and eggs. Man prefers to worship God the way they want to, not as God told them to! But I digress.
Don’t mention the part about Constantine working it to December 25th so he could unify the Sun God worshipping half of his empire with the Christian half of it.
On the bright side, we stopped being fed to lions, I guess….
In all frankness, having gone through this whole mess before, pointing this out doesn’t seem to move the ball forward any.
Maybe it just takes time, or maybe we need better tactics. TBD.
I agree.
Jeremiah 10
2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Sound familiar?
But why do we follow through with Christmas?
We do it for our children. The little guys that we care so much about.
Are we really going to deny the experience of not giving gifts to them when all their friends and classmates bring their toys to school but they never got any?
Do like Jesus did in John 10:22-23 and celebrate Hanukkah. Give 'em gifts for eight nights! That makes the others jealous.
That indeed would make them jealous. When we were kids our parents piled the gifts under the tree with lots of little stuff and some big stuff but it took like 40 minutes to open the packages. Those were the good old days. Now just memories.
Yep, beautiful days. Now they are gone.
The same reason the cross is no longer a sign of torture and death. God takes what the enemy has and uses it for good. We celebrate our saviors birth on December 25th. And the days leading up of course. Christmas in itself, fat elf and such, of course is pagan and fake. But how many times these past few weeks was the birth of Christ celebrated? For me and my family/church, many times. Candle light services. Children nativity reenactments. Gatherings. Sermons, etc. The “holiday” may be pagan. But it is called CHRISTmas. His very name is represented. God takes their event, and makes it His own. This battle is scene throughout the year. Easter. Halloween. It’s up to the individual how they represent such. For me personally, Christmas feels like every other day. I don’t “get closer” on the 25th. And I’m not “further away” at any time throughout the year. I have Jesus everyday. Dec 25th is just a beautiful story than we get to talk about and tell others about. Our Savior. We worship Jesus regardless. And thank God for sending His perfect Lamb.
I agree with you it is a most beautiful time of the year but why don't people have get togethers more often and exhibit more of that charitable giving to their friends and family?
Paul wasn't a fan
Galatians 4 10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
But I digress we have to participate for our children because of their little friends at school who are gifted.
Once they're grown then that becomes less necessary.
But gifts from the heart through out the year are a blessing.
I guess we do. My church family, we have dinners and gatherings all the time. More so than my immediate family. And sometimes, for me personally, a gift of a knife someone will make, or belt buckles. Or just some kitchenware for the wife/house. The don’t want for Christmas, lol. I guess because it’s once or twice a week we see each other so often. Our best gift is God’s blessings. And all the good things that come from Jesus. It’s a daily thing. Children are used to the gift thing around Christmas. And we’ll partake in that. It’s usually gifts that we want for them or just financial to help with whatever they are in need of money for. Our kids are grown now. Young adults I guess they are called. But they know as we do, it absolutely isn’t about the gifts. Giving to others in need is much more satisfying. A new stove. Groceries. A turkey and ham for their meal. And that goes year around. We don’t wait. Personally I look forward to hearing someone needs help with something like a purchase or similar. We aren’t rich by no means, but it feels great to help others. That is what should be taught to children as well. We do. Our church families do as well. From what I’ve seen. People give me gifts around this time of year, and I usually give them to someone else who actually needs them, lol. Shhhh don’t tell anyone. 😁
I like what you wrote and Godly friendships should be forever. 😊
When man worships contrary to the Bible he doesnt worship God, he worships a god.
You are an idiot. Where did I say you couldnt celebrate Dec 25. Celebrate what ever day you want for what ever reason, thats between you and God. Just so you know eating meat is not a holiday.
Its even tougher for people that dont know Bible. As I said and you apparently are to stupid to comprehend, celebrate what ever day you want. Be gone.
As I said your an idiot, probably catholic.
And you're a DARPA AI bot running Derp Division 2.0 software.
Hows your latest NPC software working for ya? I see you've avoided the ban hammer for a year now. What new account iteration are you?
December 25th is a day that the Lord has made, no?
Every day is a day that The Lord has made but man puts his mark on some to worship other gods.
Yep
James 4:14 (NKJV) whereas you do not know what [will happen] tomorrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.
If you think man leaves a lasting mark you think to highly of the works of man. People recognize December 25th as the date of Christ’s birth, but there is good reason to believe it is the date of His conception…the day God’s Word became flesh…God with us. Do you think man’s false religion supersedes that? Many will hear the gospel on December 25th it is a day the Lord has made and the Church sets aside that day to recognize that His birth, His adverting to us, is proof that He loves us and His desire is to save humanity by assuming flesh, becoming man and atoning for the sin of the world through his death on the cross, for you!
I never said man left a lasting mark on anything. Nothing man does suprsedes anything of God but some men worship false gods to this day. In their hearts what they think they think it suprsedes God. By the way the Gospel is not the birth of Christ, its the Death, Burial and Ressurection.
NO
Interesting thread to read and research, I remember hearing this before and to me it seems accurate when you biblically align the timeline of events.
Actually its not accurate because the Bible says Jesus was born when Herod was in power and Herod died in 4 BC so Jesus could not have been born in 3 BC
One thing we can agree on it's not December 25th, but around September or October. What do you think?
How do you account for "baby" animals in Sept or Oct? I've always felt it was spring
Hmm, good question. I am not familiar with animals and their own seasons. But given it's the birth of Christ and it was in a place where farm animals would be at.
Most animals give birth in the spring.
4 month old animals are still "babies".
There's no requirement in the text that there were baby animals. A lamb of the first year, mentioned in ritual rules, doesn't mean a lamb of exactly one year old with a set birthdate, it means a lamb born within the last year.
u/ZeKaiser
Oh interesting, thanks for the information.
If you read the article, there is evidence to support Herod died in 1 BC. I don’t know what’s right or wrong, but just sayin’
I don't know why somebody downvoted this comment; your statement is accurate. Herod's reign ending in 1 BC was mentioned as a possibility in the article.
---> For about 100 years there has been a consensus among scholars that Herod the Great reigned from 37 to 4 BCE. However, there have been several challenges to this consensus over the past four decades, the most notable being the objection raised by W. E. Filmer. This paper argues that Herod most likely reigned from late 39 BCE to early 1 BCE, and that this reconstruction of his reign can account for all of the surviving historical references to the events of Herod’s reign more logically than the current consensus can. Moreover, the reconstruction of Herod’s reign proposed in this paper accounts for all of the datable evidence relating to Herod’s reign, whereas the current consensus is unable to explain some of the evidence that it dismisses as ancient errors or that it simply ignores.
u/#mikeyep
Even the Zionists knew this. That is why they launched a major attack on us on September 11th 2001. It was to mock the birth of Christ who they consider to be a false prophet.
That’s right. I knew that day meant something important against Christians. They are evil disciples.
Thank you TI
I agreed and how are you doing? I hope better, I know it is difficult when your love one passed like my mom who passed this year too. I really miss her. Btw Happy New Year. God bless
You know I am not worried about that TIW, God is with me and thank you for your wonderful words. Probably they are actually demon disciples trying to stop the truth of what happened that day. God bless you.
There is the glaring flaw in the 3BCE dating. Herod's death and the reign of Archelaus are historically set dates. There were also some other discrepancies in other places of the article - like the dating of Gen 8.13. Whenever the Bible gives a specific time, such as the first day of the first month, it is always in reference to the religious calendar, not the civil calendar. The first day of the first month is Nisan 1, not Tishrei 1, which is the 7th month.
The problem with many works like this is that people approach it with a preconceived narrative and bias that ultimately forces the information into that bias that shapes the final outcome, instead of letting the information speak for itself and then following that - whatever direction it takes.
The important thing to remember is that the Messiah came into the world. So, whichever day or year His birth happened to fall upon is of less importance than the fact that it occurred. I have no doubt that His birth aligns with a Biblically significant date on the Hebrew calendar, but which one I believe will remain undecided until He Himself lets us know when it occurred. There are several contenders. All of them somewhat plausible. However, there is one thing I think we can all agree upon, is the fact that He was not born on Dec 25.
Merry Christmas everyone. Salvation has come into the world! - whichever day you decide to choose.
And that right there is why they did nine eleven on nine eleven. Everything is symbolic for these satanic freaks.
Everything they do is symbolic. They didn't just pick a random day. This was well thought out and planned.
Movies are loaded with 9/11 11/9 references; supposedly due to heavy Freemason involvement in the movie industry.
https://www.youtube.com/@LXXXVIIIfinistemporis/search?query=9%2011
But for a reason. It's not a random number. Everything has a reason. There are no coincidences.
No I know Christian believes he was born on Dec. 25th
I don't think Christians believe that. I think they believe it doesn't really matter when He was born, just that He WAS born and died and was resurrected. Knowing the exact date would be nice, but it's not necessary to know and appreciate Him.
Yeah, well the bible doesnt support that. As well as many other wrongly divided teachings.
I'm catholic/baptist - i have celebrated Christ's birth and resurrection my entire life - 60 Christmas's today. It's the day designated to celebrate His birthday - not necessarily His birthday, since no one actually knows His true birthday.
I larp as knowing Jesus's birthday, it was Sat 6 Oct (Julian) 4 BC or 750 AUC at 3 a.m. aka Sabbath 15 Tishri 3758 aka 4 Oct (proleptic Gregorian). The first day of Tabernacles, when God tabernacled with us, in a manger that is the same Greek word as tabernacle.
My current position is that the Annunciation and Conception occurred on, and can be celebrated on, 25 Dec Julian and 23-25 Dec Gregorian (i.e., 2,029 years and 2 days ago).
From Chuck Missler who, IMHO, was the best Biblical scholar of our time that I ever listened to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhYwyFEcqtQ
Missler is absolutely a giant. Here he is following a late view of the eclipse in Josephus championed first by Florian Reiss in 1880, which remains the minority report today. I grant that he is relying on Tertullian, who seems to have fallen for the same error as William Filmer in reading Luke's "about thirty" as "exactly thirty" (thus Tertullian takes 15 years after Tiberius and assumes exactly 15 years before Tiberius, arriving at 2 BC and informing his other calculations). But Hippolytus at the same time had heard of the 2 BC date, reports it, and then corrects himself by other data and backdates the birth of Christ back to 4 BC. So I think Hippolytus had it right in the end, as he had a direct apostolic chain of testimony from Irenaeus, Polycarp, and John and Mary.
Dude.
Who needs a library when there’s a SwampRangers around?
Nope, it was October 6, 4 BC, at 3 a.m. I've left lots of breadcrumbs here, the basics are found by searching "Chronology" at c/Christianity. Your OP gives Ernest Martin's date, but you cannot hold off Herod's death and Archelaus's reign until 3 BC if everyone knows Archelaus was deposed in mid-6 AD after reigning 10 years. Let me know if you want more details that explain things more adequately and align virtually everything.
No, October 6 was the day Frodo et al were attacked on Weathertop by the Nazgul.
Jesus was born on April 17.
I was born on April 17 like my mom and mostly falls in holy days like “Good Friday or Easter”
It's "that" number!
Yep, God and Jesus always near I just can tell you that. They have showed me their love all the time somehow like weird things happened they love us but we need to look and ask and I don’t deserve it.
https://files.catbox.moe/w8q0wi.jpeg
OH! The lost days of my youth. I never had a problem staying charged up.
Stupid electile dysvoltion.
Happens to the best of us.
Touché my eclectic fren!
Do you mean April 17 of 6 BC, when astronomer Michael Molnar detected that Jupiter traveled behind the sun? This not only disagrees with the plain text but also contradicts the Biblical facts that Jesus fled from Bethlehem to Egypt (not from Nazareth) but then he reappeared in Jerusalem on his 40th day and went to Nazareth from there. Since Herod was not dead until 4 BC, you can't get a flight from Bethlehem to Egypt to work with a safe return after Herod's death to Nazareth in conjunction with the 40-day presentation in the temple. Try it and see!
His birth was an initial set of signs of his purpose.
His life and ministry was another set of signs of his purpose.
His death was another set of signs of his purpose.
That his promises continued after his resurrection is another sign.
These things all fulfilled prophecy of the OT and further revealed the plans of God for us.
That we do not see the movements of power spoken of in Acts more widely is proof that we are presently off course.
Unless of course, the whole biblical narrative is false, which archaeologists are dead set on proving, yet keep mysteriously shooting themselves in the foot and proving the opposite.
That one sounds like a problem with the airport.
Maybe it’d work better if you added a connection in Sardinia?
That makes sense, around the two months of September and October I figured it would be in that specific time period. Because the High Holy Days happen either in September or October than being exact each year, especially the Feast of Tabernacles they say he was born around that time or a bit earlier.
I like that we celebrate his birth around the time of winter solstice. When days grow longer and darkness shorter
Interesting image choice. Are the authors of the article Mormon?
No, Born Again Christian.
Interesting. That's the Christus statue from the LDS Church conference center in Salt Lake City.
Strange choice I know, but the article speaks truth they wouldn't do themselves.
Who wouldn't do what themselves?
If the Mormons usually refuse to acknowledge the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You'll see through their lies every time you question their questionable doctrines, and they typically deny there's a hell when there's one and Bible Scriptures will prove their rhetoric wrong no matter what.
Yeah that's all debatable, but regardless, what does it have to do with this conversation about when Jesus was actually born? Mormon leaders and Mormon scholars have been saying practically since the inception of their church that December 25th isn't actually the day Jesus was born on. They agree with you on this topic. In fact they probably think you're way fucking behind. This is ancient news to them.
If you think I would care for the words of detestable liars who have no shame in deliberately misleading people astray. Riddle me this, if they're so credible why do they call Jesus Jehovah in a casual manner? If we don't call our parents by their actual real names, then why would you do that with Jesus Christ who's Almighty God?
Now we cannot compare anyone else to Him, but that seems to me like treachery to call Him by His Most Holy Name especially if it's used casually and not with reverence and respect. It doesn't help the much especially if they lie about many things pertaining God and His Word, keep in the mind the original mormon leaders are Deep State tools to mislead everyone.
Actual evidence exists of their backgrounds, if you research them properly you'll find out their true characters and you can't build off evil no matter good intentions because God doesn't base His Word off lies or the truth of this world but rather His Own.
Why do you keep insisting on dragging Mormons into this?
There are other lines of thinking that hold these points and have nothing to do with Mormonism and it’s many false doctrines.
Wonderful people, though.
None of those are my downvotes btw.
Nope. There is further research confirming even deeper that date. Jesus Christ our promised seed, by VP wierwille. Or a new youtube production called "The heavens declare the birth of Jesus Christ" 40 minuted easy to understand and all verifiable.
You mean 9/11?
Wierwille, founder of The Way International, is regarded by many Christians as an Arian cultist, but I try to view him charitably. On the present topic his particular trenchance makes his support of the date a bit of a downer for the whole thesis. If you'd like to summarize the further research that persuades you, I'm all ears.
Poising the waters logic fallacy
Download and use Stellarium to point to 9-11 over Bethlehem on 3 BC, you might see something.....
11.3
Interesting. My birthday is also September 11 and my blood type is the same as Jesus's based on the forensic tests done on the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo (AB+).
Those who are faithful in what is least are also faithful in what is much. Those who are faithful in what is much are also faithful in what is least. Do not mix darkness with light. In the first century it was as political as it is today. Rome had to appease all the Pagan worshippers because Christianity was growing so quickly. The powers saw this as concerning and developed the universal church that mixed pagan practices with the new Christian worship to appease everyone and allowed them to keep control for a time. All of that has morphed into modern Christianity. Personal study is very important for Christian apologetics.
Absolutely!
Agreed! Very interesting that the global elite have historically planned some very evil things on that day:
1857: The Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred in Utah, where Mormon militia members attacked and killed over 100 emigrants from Missouri.
1972: The Summer Olympics in Munich, Germany, ended in tragedy with the murder of 11 Israeli athletes and a German police officer by Palestinian terrorists.
1973: A military coup overthrew the democratically elected government in Chile, resulting in the death of President Salvador Allende.
2001 (9/11 Attacks): The focus of most modern discussion, involving al-Qaeda hijacking four planes, hitting the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, and Flight 93 crashing in Pennsylvania.
2012: The U.S. diplomatic compound in Benghazi, Libya, was attacked, killing U.S. Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens and three other Americans.
December 25th is the birthday of the Sun/Son....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHK2C2mf58E
"This might be right... but nobody wants to hear it."
I haven't seen this video. I know a good bit about this stuff and that's the origin of my username.
Some other good stuff.
The Astronomy & Astrology of the Solar Hero Myth
https://skyscript.co.uk/sunheath.html
I think this is the significance of the number 33. Many said Jesus died at the age of 33. There is a 33 year repeat cycle of the Sun.
(it has to do with the Sun returning to the same position in the sky after 33 years)
Playing cards are based upon the Sun. Four suits representing the four seasons, etc.
88 is another interesting number. The Sun and the Moon make analemmas in the sky. (figure 8s) There are also 88 official constellations.
Two websites if you want to know more. solarmythology.com and usbible.com. Usbible.com will give you an SSL certificate error, but I think it's okay. The guy no longer maintains the site and he has a note at the top to that effect.
Stellarium is an excellent tool to not only help you identify things in the sky, but also to confirm this stuff. https://www.usdebtclock.org/ also referred to this astrology stuff as well with Virgo and the virgin birth of Jupiter (Jupiter being the same as the Sun/Jesus) depending on the story being told. I don't feel like digging into my old posts on GA.win to track that down.
To really blow your mind, go to this site. https://www.youtube.com/@LXXXVIIIfinistemporis
Movies (and TV and even commercials/ads) are filled with TONS of symbolism that includes the All-Seeing Eye, the Sun, the Moon, duality, 88, 33 (I think), various Freemason things like the twin pillars of Jachin and Boaz, "twins" (likely because of Jachin and Boaz and/or duality), 9/11 11/9, etc. I can't watch a movie anymore without being distracted by all of the esoteric codes and symbolism; the most recent being Good Fortune with all the eyes on the bed sheets.
u/Tetartos_Ippeas
https://qalerts.app/?q=symbolism+will+be+their+downfall
Holy shit!
Are you thinkin what I'm thinkin???!!!
u/#pepedetective
This guy
Much like the playing cards and the game solitaire. There is also marble (or peg) solitaire. From the link I provided.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnUselessTalents/comments/1yozq2/how_to_solve_marblepeg_solitaire_the_easy_to/
So, we have playing cards and solitaire games that come from tracking the days, seasons, and the cycle of the Sun.
Edit: I missed the link to your picture. Interesting idea. I ran across a video recently that talked about these bags and "pine cones" that you may find interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDXgq19o3us
Thanks for the link - There are several interpretations on the pinecone & bag...and other things. Especially when you get into the Egyptian dynasties and their "divine right to rule" bs carried right thru to present day. Sean Hross had some really good info on some of these symbols ~ what anyone would think were just design elements - EVERY.THING. has meaning...in the world of symbolism/architecture/design etc.
Our modern Gregorian calendar is 365.2425 days, an error of only 27 s/y; you are thinking of the Julian error.
Thanks for all the other links and connections!
Cheers fren 🥂🍻
I always figured based on some reading I've done that Dec 25 is roughly the date of His ensoulment not his physical birth
Thank you!
That is all just Ernest Martin's stuff and is mostly astrology. Rather than list several problems with it, I'd first want to know if you are interested in a lot of details that give a different scenario. The central points appear in my chronology. What's interesting is that if Jesus was born for Tabernacles, he would've been conceived for Dedication (which that year was both 25 Kislev and 25 December, Julian). And I am finding the tie-in to the solstice happened later than the actual evidence of the Christian use of 25 December. So that excites me, but if people want to play up 9/11 they are free to use the astrology and the weaker logic.
Oh, I apologize then, when I presented content at 4thHorsemanNews I was able to keep a lighter tone and I didn't intend that to change. I don't use AI for these answers (on rare occasions I do quote an AI sentence or two, always with attribution).
I've worked to see all sides of many questions such as this one. Ernest Martin put a lot of work into presenting a devotional support of 9/11 before the date became famous, and people often cite him for that quality. Some people prefer to make devotional reference to planetary positions that would have been invisible at the time (i.e. behind the sun) but that could theoretically have been regarded as symbolic and are held as such today; they find this more useful than reference to the festivals Jesus celebrated that are constantly given as waymarks in history. But everyone who comes to the question typically ends up with the know-it-all tone sooner or later (I do slip into it), partly defensively and partly offensively. It was my original intent when first publishing on the subject to be tentative, and yet to put my date out there complete with a "3 a.m." timestamp to indicate that it's partly tongue-in-cheek and everything is improvable. My discussion tactics aren't always best.
You answered my question, and the probability of that answer is the reason I asked it that way rather than weigh you down with the detailed, involved, intelligent realizations I've come to. I respect you and your joint contributions here and want this to continue to be a supportive family for you. Perhaps we'll have occasion to speak again more constructively; if you're still reading I encourage you that you should have power to unlock 4thHorsemanNews and see those vibrant contributors return.
No AI. I respect your view on 4thHorsemanNews then and appreciate your explanation, and you know I look forward to meeting you and Michael both in God's timing.
It is unfortunate that the Massacre of the Innocents didn’t appear on Josephus’s radar, as he would have been a handy reference for pinning down the date. A dozen murdered boys in a tiny village under Herod was likely just not newsworthy at the time. In my opinion, the exact date is less important than the celebration of Christ’s birth itself. While Constantine did no biblical favors by rearranging the calendar, his decision to align the observance with midwinter absolutely served to place Christ—rather than a pagan deity—at the center of the season. This effectively eliminated the need for midwinter rituals dedicated to false gods. That shift alone likely prevented many human sacrifices. In that sense, it certainly embodies the purpose of Christ, even if it sacrifices accuracy regarding the precise day of His birth.JS
There is evidence that Josephus did likely twice refer to the massacre of the innocents, naming the conspirators as Joseph (Herod's cousin), Rufus, and Gratus!
I didn’t know that thank you for pointing out that info now I know to keep digging.
A friend of mind wrote a great one as well
https://ewmergele.com/lessons/jbirthstory.htm
for me, one of the yuge factors in all this is what has God said about mixing lies w truth, mixing truth w pagan teachings. it's like 'fermenting the whole loaf', a little bit of 'untruth,' a little bit of 'false teaching,' a little bit of 'impure thoughts' is the same as leaven affecting the whole loaf.
"A little leaven leavens the whole lump - Gal 5:9
"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." - 1 Cor 10:31
Jesus was born when there were "baby" animals. That would NOT be Sept OR Dec.
June 17th is as far away as you can get from Saturnalia. It's EXACTLY 6 months from Dec 17th and EXACTLY 40 weeks AFTER Sept 11th. Seems more likely that 9/11 coincides with the anniversary of the Immaculate Conception.
The only problem with that date is that the shepherds were in the fields with their flocks when our Savior was born. It's far more likely that He was born in the spring because of this.
Not that it matters.
The Catholic church moved dates and changed information as needed to try and make Christianity align with foreign deities so they could say "Look, you're already worshiping what we worship, you just got the names wrong." Enjoy your fertility symbols on the Passover...
Thank you for posting this. The alignment in the constellations: woman and lion are not unique to the Birth of Jesus. It occurs during Creation, Noah, the Birth of Jesus on September 11th, 3BC, and September 23rd, 2017. https://a.co/d/f7XUxq3
You're welcome!