Neither of you are wrong.

Question is, should a citizen give up their rights when enlisting? Is there a way to structure the military that accommodates individual liberty?

If the military ordered your spouse to march over a cliff would he do it?

Both positions are understandable.

But at some point a soldier has to be able to act to save his own life so he can live to fight another day.

Just following orders is not a defense. Nuremburg 1.0

When I got my shots to deploy I was fine right up to the anthrax shot. They stuck my arm I felt instant cold rush through my body,took one step and collapsed. When I came to I had the doctor yelling at me. An angry old female Asian doctor. But after that I started to get weird heart Arrhythmia almost like shuttering . Was the worst for the first 3 years then slowly went away only coming back every now and then but now I can't remember when it happened last. I avoided all other shots in the military like the plague. And right up to the end didn't take another. And refuse to even consider any other ones since I've been out. I'm not anti vax but I'm also not going to gamble with the chance of dying with the reaction I got from that one.

Hope I don't get too long winded here, and I apologize in advance if I get too far into the weeds in my input.

I do have personal experience with this, for what it's worth.

I started my career as enlisted in 1996. Went in to become an NCO (E7) and eventually went Warrant. I am still serving as a Warrant Officer.

I received all the previous stuff including several anthrax shots, smallpox etc in 2003 before deploying to Iraq.

As a Soldier, I NEVER thought in terms of "bodily autonomy" it was always about trusting my leadership, my fellow Soldiers and the Constitution and the great citizens of this country. My main focus was always about the mission and viewed my own personal safety as always secondary to the mission.

As an NCO, I was constantly pouring through regs and applicable laws in dealing with pretty much every issue that arose especially when it was related to one of my Soldiers. I always approached this task looking to best take care of my troop. Sometimes that wasn't possible, but my troops were my life.

In the military, there are virtually no possible issues that aren't covered by some, if not layers of regulations or laws already in existence.

This COVID mandate was NO different. It wasn't a new situation. In fact, immediately after hearing of a possibility of a mandate I began digging for applicable regs. I found them. I don't have them handy, but can provide the references if anyone wants it.

The situation with this mandate boiled down to the EUA status of the ACTUAL vaccines being administered vs. the theoretical "approved" Comirnaty that didn't exist. US Code requires the President and SECDEF to do certain things if they wish to require experimental medical treatment for Soldiers. THEY CAN require experimental vaccines, but need to follow the law. In this case, they did not do those things so their mandate was int legal (in my opinion).

I objected to the mandate on three grounds in my objection memo. First on religious, then medical and finally on the legal argument mentioned above. My religious and medical objections were both denied. I appealed the medical and was again denied. The legal argument I raised was never considered.

I received a GOMOR with threat of involuntary separation, submitted a rebuttal and was given some relief as my GOMOR was locally filed instead of my permanent personnel record.

So, I pretty much fought this fight as far as it could go. The military is very procedural and not a lot is open to interpretation by individuals.

I still believe that the mandate was not handled in a legal manner, because tptb we're trying to substitute the EUA version for the nonexistent "approved" version. It (in my opinion) was a grand slight of hand and at it's core, unlawful. I believe that is what Rep. Massey was talking about when he called it a "crime in progress"

Back to the bodily autonomy thing, I would argue that there is no such thing in the military. As I said, there are regs upon regs that govern everything but the bottom line for me was that while the military CAN require experimental vaccines etc. They must follow the law when implementing it which they did not (again, my opinion).

So, not sure who is correct in your argument, but hopefully that helps.

As a USAF veteran, I used to think like your husband. I remember at OTS, lining up to get a series of shots every 3 weeks with the guns. I would get a fever and feel sick after each set. Who knows what they really put in me? (supposedly it was flu, yellow fever and what were generally acceptable shots back then.)

But officers cannot give illegal orders. The shot that military members are receiving is experimental and thus it is an illegal order to force subordinates to take it. People in the chains of command (including medical) have to know somewhere in that chain that it was a bait and switch. They have a duty to verify that they are not giving an unlawful order.

I have come to believe there is no purpose in any of the vaccines except for a Big Pharma, hospitals and doctors to make money. A shot that was shown to kill more and cause more adverse, debilitating reactions than all vaccines combined in 20 years should have been a wake up call for the high ranking in the military. Those il leadership in the military have a duty to protect those under their command. I want to know if all the high ranking commanders took the shot too.

Your husband’s opinion is wrong. Regardless of the legal justification of the Vax mandate, it was clearly an illegal order.

1. The military cannot mandate a medicine that is under an EUA order.

2. In order to get around that, the DoD issued a “legal opinion” that equated the Pfizer EUA “vaccine” as the same as the FDA-approved “vaccine” called Comirnaty. This “legal opinion” was both faulty and suspiciously convenient at the time it was issued.

3. Pfizer stated that although similar, the two “vaccines” were legally distinct from each other and were not the same. In addition, Comirnaty wasn’t available at the time and only now supposedly is being used, a year-plus from the DoD mandate. Pfizer mentioned at the time of the mandate that they would exhaust existing supplies of the EUA “vaccine” before issuing Comirnaty as its “replacement.”

4. At the same time when the military mandate was being implemented, the DoD authorized alternative “vaccines” other than the Pfizer jab if the recipient didn’t want to take the Pfizer product (I believe these were the J&J, Moderna, and the Astra-Zeneca shots.).

4a. It’s curious that the only “vaccine” that the military could impose on its troops was the Pfizer product and yet the DoD authorized other EUA shots in its place. My conclusion for this was that it provided additional legal liability “shielding” if the military member suffered an adverse event by “voluntarily” choosing an EUA “vaccine” versus the FDA-approved one. Technically, the only “vaccine” that should’ve been given to military members was the Pfizer shot, and none other. (My suspicion tells me that the DoD did this because it was aware of the anecdotal stories coming out of people collapsing and dying after getting the Pfizer shot, and so they wanted to give the vaccine hesitant an easy “out” from the “officially mandated” shot.)

4b. Ditto for Pfizer on the legal liability “shielding” provided by law for an EUA medicine. Pfizer is legally protected for those taking the EUA jab versus the FDA-approved jab. What I foresee in future litigation is that Pfizer will state that it was the DoD and not them who forced their personnel into taking an EUA shot; instead, the DoD should’ve waited for the “approved” Comirnaty product to roll out. The DoD’s argument will be that this was a “national emergency,” the situation was extremely fluid, and time was of the essence in order to protect its personnel. To an unbiased observer, both arguments should fail on their merits.

5. According to the DMED data that was leaked earlier this year, there was a dramatic increase of illnesses and diseases across the board for military members after the “vaccine” mandate. In addition, I believe there were only about ~30 direct COVID fatalities in the military this past year and a half (I’d like to see the previous data on flu deaths to see how that compares), which tells me for the military, this was not an “emergency” of any kind that necessitated a need for the mandate (In comparison, in 2021 there were ~700 suicides and accidental deaths in the military). In addition, I’m pretty confident this DMED data was (and is) readily available and known to mid and senior-level DoD leadership and YET they did nothing and have done nothing to change course and adapt to the trending information.

6. As a conspicuous corollary to the above, the DoD does authorize exemptions to vaccine mandates for religious, medical, and personal reasons. Prior to the COVID-19 shot, military personnel who invoked a religious exemption were routinely given one without needing to thoroughly justify the request. This all changed for this mandate, and even in spite of personnel having to explain in detail their exemption requests, almost all submission requests were routinely denied. During the recent 5th Circuit Appellate Court decision against the Air Force, the Court noted the AF only granted religious exemptions to those who were separating within a year of the mandate, but not to anyone else. The Court also noted that the AF justification for denying exemptions appeared to be “canned” rejection replies instead of responding to each request individually (as is required). IOW, the Court said the AF was violating its own regulations in the unequal treatment of their people. (Note: this ruling only granted a permanent injunction status against the AF vax mandate until a final ruling is made; the actual trial over the vax mandate is yet to take place. However, after reading the Appellate ruling, it’s readily apparent that the current AF argument is extremely weak and I wouldn’t be surprised if they move for dismissal as this case is now “moot” due to the new NDAA that revokes the vax mandate. Hopefully the court will not agree to the dismissal, as this should go all the way to SCOTUS for ~final ruling.)

I completely agree with your husband about maintaining proper military discipline and order. This is absolutely necessary in order to accomplish the mission. However… there is a huge difference between being ordered to do something questionable (i.e. wash the Colonel’s personal car on a Saturday) versus being forced to take a medicine whose effects aren’t fully known and might not be reversible. Although you know that the former is most likely an illegal order, an obedient subordinate will go ahead and wash the damn car on Saturday and then pay a visit to the Inspector General’s office on Monday. You really can’t do that with the “vaccine” mandate. Being forced to take an experimental medicine that could potentially kill or injure you for the rest of your life is a completely different set of circumstances, as it carries an obligation that can continue well past your time in military service. I’ve heard that the DoD has ~promised to take care of any members who might get injured by the “vaccine,” but what will most likely happen (re: the Agent Orange and Gulf War Syndrome cases), the DoD will fight and deny and delay any responsibility for these injuries until they can’t anymore. This will mean years and years of suffering for injured Vets and their families before they’re finally given the proper care (if it even helps).

When you combine the above with the fact that Big Pharma has been repeatedly fined and admitted civil and criminal guilt for falsifying clinical trial data and bribing medical professionals in order to sell previous products, it doesn’t take much of a leap to assume they’re doing the same here, but on a scale that’s magnitudes above what they’ve done before.
IOW if they end up making $500 billion on this scam but later fined $400 billion for this fraud, they’ll still be $100 billion ahead at the end (minus the political bribes and professional kickbacks, but that’s the game they play here).

My investigation suggests that for quite a while now (a few thousand years or so), humanity has been trained by the same people to believe that we must be ruled.

rule: principle or maxim governing conduct, formula to which conduct must be conformed

To rule means to create principles AKA laws which must be conformed to by those who are ruled (AKA We The People). If you are ruled, you don't have a choice. It is the removal of autonomy and free will. The concept of "rulership" makes the claim that those that rule have the fundamental right to decide the actions of the ruled.

This has been going on for a long time, and it's structure has changed somewhat over the years, centuries, and millennia, but the same people have been at the top, and the same people have been at the bottom of this "ruling hierarchy" the entire time. During the middle ages for example, The Church allowed the kings to "rule" by proclaiming that they had the Divine Right, power vested in them by The Church. Of course these "kings" (or queens) themselves were subject to Church rule, so guess who ran The Church? (Hint, it generally wasn't the Pope, it was the people who controlled the money supply.)

The will of every human being has always been controlled by the people who control the money supply. Sometimes in history that group coincides with the High Priests, sometimes it simply controls the priesthood, but they have always been intimately tied at least since ancient Babylon (where the trail grows a little more muddy). You can see this play out so clearly in the Code of Hammurabi (it is well worth the read). When you read it, you see that there are different laws for different classes of people. The only class of people who aren't subject to any laws are the Priests, aka the group of people who wrote the code itself and control the money through the temple.

I'm sorry I don't have references at the moment, I am doing this from memory. At some point I will try to write this up more formally.

Anyways, this "rulership," and the claim that our will must not be free, but rather subject to the PTB is a core belief for almost everyone on the planet. The military caters to people who hold on to that belief more tightly than average. It also brainwashes people to believe it from day one. That is what "boot camp" is. In addition to physical training, it is a brainwashing session, to instill in the minds of the soon to be soldiers the belief that they have no right to make their own choices, or use their own judgement, etc. They are trained to believe it would "harm all people" if they choose for themselves.

I suggest however, that this is in direct violation of a fundamental Truth: namely that we are all the Kings and Queens of our own life. It doesn't matter if we are made to believe we have no choice, we always have a choice. We can always choose to not follow orders, or the law, or the lemming in front of us jumping off the cliff.

Our society, in 100 directions at once, has been structured such that we have been trained to not believe in that fundamental truth or to coerce us into compliance. We have been trained to believe that we must follow orders or other people will be harmed. We must obey for the greater good. Who exactly the greater good are, and/or how they will be harmed if we make choices for ourselves is rarely elaborated well, but in the military it is. This type of training/brainwashing is well laid out there, which makes fighting that brainwashing very difficult.

I feel your pain.

I'm retired and that was my attitude. Now, stop all vaxxes and don't trust them. Ask him if he thinks the tuskeegee airmen should feel that way. The breech of trust is worse than the vax. It kills our military. Out first responsibility is to remain fit to fight.

Joining the military is not a suicide pact. Orders MUST be lawful. The death VAX order was no different than being ordered to take a suicide pill. UNLAWFULL through and through. The military can't function properly this way. This was a breakdown of military leadership from the top. You are 100% correct and I'm a veteran myself. The courts have already ruled the military broke the rules in mandating the death vax. Your husband is wrong.

"Members of the armed services lose the right to bodily autonomy when they join. If one is ordered to take a given series of vaccines or meds, then one should have faith in the higher-ups who've deemed it necessary and follow those orders. If members of the military are allowed to pick and choose what they put in their bodies, then the chain of command breaks down and weakens the military as a whole."

I understand this position and there is merit to it. But two problems with this logic come to mind:

1. Where does it end? At what point is there a limit? In full disclosure, I have never served. But is there not some limit to ceding one's very life to the armed services?

2. When the United States Government has been captured by a hostile force either external or internal, complete submission on the part of our servicemen becomes a very, very gray and complex area. I doubt many would disagree that we have a hostile force in Washington D.C.

This is a very, very messy argument when one delves into it. And while my knee jerk reaction is along the lines of "fuck no, this is a criminal government trying to destroy our own military", I do understand your husband's position. Again, this is an extraordinarily messy problem.

C19 had a minimal risk of death in young healthy people. If the opposition information was not censored, better decisions would have been made. Our military’s good health is a matter of National Security. Biden is a compromised President. President Trump posted about Hydroxychloroquine 26 times on Twitter. Dr. Zelenko had a treatment protocol. Other doctors developed ways to treat C19. Vitamin D was found to be beneficial & then Ivermectin proved to be extremely beneficial. But the evil cabal wanted their profits & our deaths! The Pharmaceutical Corporations knew the vaxxx would injure & cause death or Pfizer wouldn’t have wanted the judicial system to hide it’s information for 75 years! No experimental vaxxx should EVER be mandated. After what we know now, all vaxxx should be reviewed. Our entire medical system is corrupted by money. The military is suppose to obey lawful orders.

You're always wrong if you blow up on someone. You are letting your emotions dominate. It happens to me as well, usually when she says something about "covid"

In 1918, soldiers were given vaccines as a large scale human experiment.

You know what happened afterwards.

How do you uphold your oath to "defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic" when the domestic enemy includes the upper ranks of the military? At this point, do you not have an obligation to refuse the vaxx?

It's a bit of a conundrum, no?

Great post. Your husband is right. That is why we, those that are civilians( husbands, wives, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, ect.) are so important. They have to follow orders. We do not. We have to fight for them when they cannot fight for themselves. You are right exept for where you think they should disobey an order. See the catch 22? Chain of command is imperative to the operation of the armed forces as a whole. We the people have to hold those in command to account which is what the media used to be about. We are at war with an invisible enemy and the fog is thick. Our soldiers depend on us to do the things they cannot as we depend on them to do what we cannot. We are as much a part of the army as they just with different jobs.

Soldiers have long been guinea pigs for pharma and other industries exactly because of this issue. So we have 2 choices:

1. continue to allow the military to abuse and kill soldiers to support that which should rightly be considered illegal human experimentation and thereby damage trust in the institution

2. fight them in court and any and every other forum available until the corruption is addressed and as a result trust is restored

It does military order and discipline no good to inflict unnecessary death and injury on soldiers for the purpose of private profits of unrelated organizations.

The Nazi guards at the concentration camps were just following orders, were they not? Does that absolve them from crimes against humanity?

Orders should be followed so the unit does not break down, I agree, but discernment should be used for "questionable" orders.

it's understandable that he thinks that way, they train ... i mean brainwash, military personnel from day one.

the few strong-minded in the military that refused & fought the propaganda, are to thank for things changing regarding military vaccinations. they saw the attack & fought it from within. they didn't run away or leave the military. they stood & fought.

all enemies foreign & DOMESTIC... that includes compromised "higher ups"

the so-called "military way" is a result of the communist mindset that permeates throughout the military system. do as your told, think as your told & die on the hill we send you to. don't question authority. if you do, you're not a "patriot". here's your bed. here's your three meals a day. you belong to us. you're welcome.

federal military is comped from the start anyways. if a tyrannical government takes over with an enemy/puppet president, the entire military is then enemy of the people. they take the final order from the same tyrannical, compromised government official.

He's pretty much right in that's how the military functions, but there should be no pride in it. There needs to be room to ask questions and fight for your God given rights as a human being, unless your husband thinks that just because you choose to serve in the military, it makes you sub human, and you no longer have God given rights, nor should you, for the benefit of the ruling elite.

If he really feels that it is OK for all military human beings created in God's image are fine to be experimented on, fodder, expendable, and pawns for the government to use and abuse however they see fit, he must have a lot more trust and confidence in the government and military leadership than most.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/06/06/public-trust-in-government-1958-2022/

I think most here know the majority of those "in power" and in the government are hopelessly corrupt and would sell us all down the river first chance they get to make a buck.

Obviously it is the wrong answer to trust the government and just say it is OK they are experimenting on human beings like lab rats.

The military brainwashes every one who joins. It’s rare that any, even officers are immune. They are programmed to obey not to think. They are programmed to understand that the military owns them. That is in large part true. Even after leaving the military they’re not completely free.

You’re fighting a loosing battle.

At some point those troops in 1940s Germany had a responsibility before God to stop following bad orders. When that was is the question and it might be different for each soldier.

I think the "pnly obeying orders" thing has already been tried and found wanting. Just sayin'.

The Nuremburg Code said "no enforced experimentation" for anyone, even soldiers.

You are not wrong but we have entered a new paradigm with the plandemic. Keep in mind that many are stuck with the old world while pretending we haven't been pushed into the new world at break neck speed.

With Agent Orange and Gulf War Syndrome well documented one would think current military members would be more hesitant when it comes to "following orders". But many still cling to the past glory and not objectively looking at the current reality.

It would be different if the military had earned that trust. But, it has not. There is a long sorted history of our military using its rank and file soldiers as Guinea pigs. Look into the "Spanish Flu" outbreak and its links to Ft Riley Kansas and experimental vaxxines. I dealt with many vaxxine injured Gulf War vets when I worked at the VA. I understand where your husband is coming from. But sorry, the DoD has consistently abused the right to have soldiers blindly follow when it comes to injecting foreign substances into the body. Not only does the government abuse and injure them, but then it also kicks them to the curb after they are hurt and say that their physical problems are psychosomatic.

That kind of trust required for the military to operate has been forever damaged.... not sure how that can be worked out.

As a former military member, lawful order are orders BUT the key word there is LAWFUL. This mRNA treatment was never lawful as the only version of it that was approved was never actually available. The called it "Cominarty" and as far as I know not a single DOD member ever got it.

https://www.uscg.mil/Coronavirus/Information/Article/2781403/covid-19-vaccine-mandated-for-all-military-members/

That is one of many links basically discussing the technically legal order to get that specific (EDIT) experimental treatment.

Using the emergency rules to force members to get different versions is highly dubious in the legal sense.

Also there is the general intent behind the orders and oath. Goal is to defend the Constitution and so on, if you do stupid things to your body, for example military members getting sunburned right before a mission, you could get written up or even fined. I actually knew some guys they got in trouble for this. Taking an experimental treatment where the risk is unknown VS Covid for young fit males, which has less than a 1% risk, could be interpreted in the exact same way.

Both valid points but the conversation is what should be done about the government using the military as guinea pigs for big pharma. They should not be forced to take anything that impairs their ability to be battle ready. The military has operated like that for tears but does not make it right and soldiers shouldnt have to take a shot that could kill them or leave. Thats an insane stance. Would they all line up to snort an 8Ball if ordered to? No. Should that order be given in the first place? No. So what to do now?